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2014-05-26: I Have Suffered For You
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
Is it even possible to die in the Sinfest universe?



http://sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3957


that doesn't come even remotely close to answering my question

for one thing, I doubt that butterfly was sapient

and it probably just went to hell anyway
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Thu May 29, 2014 3:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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khan



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:

Imho the murder argument is profoundly untenable. If I am using an industrial robot that i accidently damage or destroy, i assure you i wouldnt be a murderer. The fact that the self destruct button worked kinda suggests its not even the same as PX, who couldnt be controlled via remote. Maybe im mistaken, but a robot has no soul, and both humans and devil people have souls. Dismanteling a robot for doing exactly what its supposed to do is stupid, and if that robot has some awareness, it should probably be respected.


but don't you see

the presence of a "soul"* makes the destruction of any physical body a far lesser crime than what it would be otherwise -- I don't consider anything short of the absolute obliteration of a mind to be murder


*whatever the fuck that means
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Thu May 29, 2014 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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khan



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
khan wrote:

Imho the murder argument is profoundly untenable. If I am using an industrial robot that i accidently damage or destroy, i assure you i wouldnt be a murderer. The fact that the self destruct button worked kinda suggests its not even the same as PX, who couldnt be controlled via remote. Maybe im mistaken, but a robot has no soul, and both humans and devil people have souls. Dismanteling a robot for doing exactly what its supposed to do is stupid, and if that robot has some awareness, it should probably be respected.


but don't you see

the presence of a soul makes the destruction of any physical body a far lesser crime than what it would be otherwise -- I don't consider anything short of the absolute obliteration of a mind to be murder


yeah, but i cant agree that eternal torture is better than oblivion. I agree we are defined more by mind than body, but having a mind only so it can suffer endlesdly is sucky.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but that crime is on the hands of the torturers
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Midnight Tea



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khan, I invite you to read more closely the "argument" you claim is untenable before dismissing it out of hand. Robots don't have a soul? Excuse me, but what the hell is a soul? No serously, what? Do you have an answer to that? Can it be measured, weighted, do you know the primary elements of it? That's rhetorical obviously -- no you don't. Claiming one thing has an immaterial unmeasurable thing more than another thing has an immaterial non-measurable thing is begging the question and a non-sequitur besides. As to whether a literal soul exists in the context of the Sinfest universe that's a little less clear given the Devil's modus operandi to seize ownership of them, but I think the comic doesn't provide much meat on the topic either way. It certainly hasn't shown to explicitly exclude self-aware reality zone'd bots so any attempt to dismiss it on that grounds doesn't hold water.

(Horrifyingly, maybe D-corp is interested in Pixi's experiences as research so they could fill out Hell with unlimited amounts of artificial damned)


With the soul clearly not being an object that can be defined, we're left with the philosophical concept of a soul. Self-awareness, the ability to think and feel and the ability to distinguish one's self as distinct from other individuals or the environment. It's pretty clear that a bot that enters the Reality Zone gains that capacity and to an appreciable degree. It was true of Pixi and it became true for her assassin. Which was then swiftly terminated by Milton.

That means, yes, he killed a person if we define "person" as a thing with a philosophical soul. Maybe not much of a person person because she didn't even have time to live or make much use of her newfound awareness, but as I said in some ways that makes it worse -- like intentionally putting a baby to death. And yes, that means we have every reason to not like Milton and we don't have enough character development to compare it against.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
I dont think building sex toys really makes you an asshole inherently. The spytech too. I also feel little reason to like milton, but i'm not sure youre correct to imply that he could find a different job. His collossal ineptitude with saph and seeming naivite (hes shockingly ignorant id say) suggest he probably works with machines by default, not choice. He seems incapable of anything else, other than menial tasks, which he is too intelligent to be happy doing. Note, milton was very afraid of losing his pleasant job, blue just loves doing hers.
.


His building sex toys isn't what I think makes him an asshole. It's his behavior.

Blue has the job she does because she wasn't able to get another one. Her grades were shit, and no one wanted to employ her. Now that she's a devil person and well known as a booth babe, etc, there's no reason to expect anyone else will employ her.

The possibility of Milton not being able to get a job elsewhere doesn't make him a likeable asshole. I can think of reasons why he might be the way he is, and I can think up details that might make him likeable. But Tat hasn't added anything to Milton that make him likeable to me.

Also, I'm sick of the poor geeky dude who just wants to get the girl. That's a trope I would like to see die a fiery death. Milton reminds me of that trope, except he's not front and center as a romantic lead. So the repetition of that makes him unlikeable to me.

In conclusion, when I have reasons for liking or not liking a thing, or saying or not saying a thing, and someone comes along saying, "Everyone likes/dislikes this thing because they just haven't thought about it!" or "No one has said a thing about this because they're just giving a free pass!"
That just pisses me off. So it becomes less about the thing, and more about showing there are reasons for the called-out people to be doing what they're doing.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
for one thing, I doubt that butterfly was sapient


In the Sinfestiverse, butterflies are at least as sapient as Pooch and Percy; Pooch has spoken to them and they've spoken to him in return. If that doesn't fit your parameters, well, shrug, then. Wink
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:



Blue has the job she does because she wasn't able to get another one. Her grades were shit, and no one wanted to employ her. Now that she's a devil person and well known as a booth babe, etc, there's no reason to expect anyone else will employ her.








Why, you're totally right. You can see the resignation on her face as she takes a job she doesn't really want. Look at all that resignation on her face.

That is one dang resigned face, and those are some really resigned excited hands in the last panel.

Resignation. It literally pours off Blue in this strip.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the strip you just posted, Blue had literally been trying to comfort her friend who was being abused by customers - then suddenly the boss man invites her to his limo, presumably for a promotion. She was having a shitty night, then bam, success! She doesn't have to like her life to appreciate a promotion.

This was also when she was younger, before Fuschia left. I don't doubt she genuinely enjoyed working for someone who had been nice enough to offer her a job when no one else would take her, and then recognized her hard work by promoting her.


But more to the point, whether or not Blue likes her job, there is no reason to think she is more employable than Milton. Which was what I was responding to.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, your post didn't say anything about Blue's feelings about her job prospect, only estimated their availability...
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this also suggests that blue didn't exactly drag fuchsia along with her - d-man chose them _both_. sure, blue was excited - she had seen that poster about 'are you good enough for devil manor', and the answer, suddenly, is 'yes'.

and for a long time, fuchsia seemed to enjoy the work. in fact, as has been much discussed here in the past, when we first saw them, fuchsia seemed to be the leader. it wasn't till she met crim that she started rethinking things.
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OklahomanSun



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree regarding Blue. To be honest, I'm on vacation on the Isle of Man and in bliss anyway, so I'm not feeling very confrontational.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm eating homemade pretzel buns. Bread is delicious.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I'm eating homemade pretzel buns. Bread is delicious.

Bread is TOTALLY delicious.

I wish I had some right now.

Maybe I'll buy bread tomorrow.
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