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Issues of men
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
This thread's title is misleading.

I thought there would be more discussion about a certain gay magazine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_(magazine)



you can use the url tags to keep links like that from breaking, you know

though they seem break posts when you nest them in a quote, probably because we're using outdated-as-phonographs forum software

anyway, there's probably a torrent or something somewhere if you're interested...
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Fri May 30, 2014 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh... Alright. I just assumed, really.

Truth to be told, before this thread I had no idea of what your gender was at all. The more you know, I figure
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:

though they seem break posts when you nest them in a quote


yup

confirmed
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

I'm sure that becoming a trans-person (Always hated the term. For some reason the including of 'person' in there looks dehumanizing to me. Tell me if there's a better one.) requires quite a lot of courage, and it's sad that you might be ending up regretting the choice, even in the passing.


You don't become a trans person. Trans people are trans, and then they may choose to transition later, or otherwise confirm that they are trans.

Person is in there to be more humanizing, as a reminder that yes, we are people.

Midnight Tea, in my experience, trans communities have gotten so much better. I remember when I first started getting online at the same time, there was a lot of homophobia, and the same nonsense you are talking about. In the trans men oriented communities I visited, there was a lot of laying down the law about how all trans people need to do this, not do that. And you definitely had to be straight, or else.

Eventually I noticed that gay trans people were showing up all the fuck everywhere, and it was gayland in the trans internets. Things were a bit better then.

Now I'm finding lots of genderqueer and non-binary people, and in my opinion this is even better. Non-binary people speaking up to be recognized and calling out bullshit has toned down a lot of the gender policing that used to happen. And some communities still do lots of gender policing, but as far as I've seen they are not really as popular as they used to be.

Also, I think if you identify as a woman, there is no reason that you can't call yourself a trans person. Not being able to get surgery doesn't change your identity, and it is unfortunate you haven't been able to.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... Noticed the bad phrasing while I was asleep. Sorry about that.

Alright, then. As I said, I couldn't quite nail down why the word bothered me so. Glad to hear that it's not ill-received.
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Midnight Tea



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
You don't become a trans person. Trans people are trans, and then they may choose to transition later, or otherwise confirm that they are trans.

My case is a little weird -- I didn't figure out anything was "wrong" until I was at least 16 or 17. But I had a rocky upbringing to say the least and was developmentally delayed besides. But generally I wasn't uncomfortable in my own skin until my teenage hormones were in full swing. It was just around that time that I let myself serious wonder what the other side is like and... yeah, that desire to experience it wound up burrowing into my skull like an alien parasite and hasn't gone away in the last 15 years.

stripeypants wrote:
Midnight Tea, in my experience, trans communities have gotten so much better. I remember when I first started getting online at the same time, there was a lot of homophobia, and the same nonsense you are talking about. In the trans men oriented communities I visited, there was a lot of laying down the law about how all trans people need to do this, not do that. And you definitely had to be straight, or else.

Eventually I noticed that gay trans people were showing up all the fuck everywhere, and it was gayland in the trans internets. Things were a bit better then.

Now I'm finding lots of genderqueer and non-binary people, and in my opinion this is even better. Non-binary people speaking up to be recognized and calling out bullshit has toned down a lot of the gender policing that used to happen. And some communities still do lots of gender policing, but as far as I've seen they are not really as popular as they used to be.

I appreciate the chiming in, I didn't think it was just me. Or that I was the only one who had some profoundly ugly experiences with the early online trans communities. I'm really sorry that trans men were just as bad. I confess to being a little bit surprised. I assumed if anything they'd be a little more laid back, since taking male hormones has a lot more dramatic an effect. Being a man doesn't strike me as being that hard if you're not picky about what kind of man you want to be. Just stop caring about your appearance as much etc.

stripeypants wrote:
Also, I think if you identify as a woman, there is no reason that you can't call yourself a trans person. Not being able to get surgery doesn't change your identity, and it is unfortunate you haven't been able to.

Well, again, I'm a weird case -- I have hang-ups about identifying as a woman. One is that it feels really presumptuous, and like I'm demeaning some of what women go through (I follow feminist issues fairly closely) to lay claim to the label. It feels more special somehow if I'm invited into it instead of just jumping at the table and demanding to be served? I dunno, as I said, I'm a neurotic mess as far as that goes.
One way to put is that I very strongly love women beyond even what most men feel, and would be honored beyond words if I was offered a chance to inhabit such a form. Some part of me even insists it's a form of "rape" to grab at femininity as a concept and say "this is mine to do what I want with".

Similarly, I sometimes wonder if the trans label should apply to me because it really was late until I had any problems with who I was. I don't fit the standard story. The best way I could put it is that I was okay with being a boy (aside from having increasingly violent, showboating peers) but really did not want to be a man. And yeah, I didn't actually go through with anything trans people do with medicine or hormones or whatnot so I'm not technically sharing in their struggle today.



Sorry for hijacking this thread so hard for trans-people! It just came up because genderqueer people definitely have something to add to any discussion about gender prejudice on either side.
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Falkonn



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is non-binary people a term that means they don't identify as either male or female, but something in between like it sounds? Honestly I think that I'm too old to be in the groups that talk about this kind of thing now a days (or I've just segmented myself away from those groups by getting married and having kids and spending like 95% of my time with them). Honestly anything after the LGBT gets a bit lost on me, and I know that list goes on for quite a bit longer now a days.

That being said I have an enormous amount of compassion for people that are discriminated against for their gender/sexual identity. I was talking with my wife last night before we went to bed after reading an article (I'll edit it in later after I find it again, it was a good article), and I told her that every time I read a first hand account of someone LGBT growing up it makes me realize how difficult that experience is. I know its not particularly easy after they grow up as I've had several close friends that identified as gay and a couple of trans friends), but I think/hope that it does get easier at a certain point (not that the stereotyping or people looking at you a certain way goes away), but I hope that at least people will respect your choices even if they don't agree with them at this point in our society. I'm under the impression that while there is a lot of work to do that our society is becoming more accepting as time goes on (is this true in your experience also?).

More on topic, I thought this thread would focus more specifically on things like women only work out times or male rape or that kind of thing. I did have something I wanted to say about male rape. The small amount of reading that I've done tells me that it happens more often then I'd like to think about. The truth of the matter any way you look at it is that it doesn't really matter whether it is a male or female that is getting raped. Someone is still getting raped and that the act itself is terrible. The thing that we need to fight back against isn't just the rape itself, its the culture that leads to sexual violence. This includes stuff like that article that was linked earlier in this thread about women who don't feel comfortable telling people that they don't want to talk to them. I saw a video that's about ten minutes long that I'll find and link at the bottom too that really puts this into perspective. I think that what I'm trying to say is that while men do get raped, we don't have to deal with (to borrow from the comic a bit) THE PATRIARCHY/ the patriarchal nature of our society the same way that women do. This makes sexual violence more likely towards women, and means that they don't get to feel safe even just walking around at certain times of the day.

I think that's all I wanted to say on the topic, I think I'll go find those links now...

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/29/are_you_a_boy_or_a_girl_our_trans_bisexual_love_story/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

And

http://www.upworthy.com/a-french-film-showing-men-what-being-a-woman-feels-like-kinda

This film is ten minutes long and if your one of my fb friends you may have already seen it since I posted it there. Either way its absolutely worth the time to watch it.
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Falkonn



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't see your post midnight (it posted while I was writing mine). Just wanted to say that you are who you are MT. Don't get caught up in the words. If you want to identify as trans then I say go for it. Either way just remember that your perfect just the way that you are, and that words are just words. They will never be able to fully encompass you as an individual because you are more then a label.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Falkonn. Don't feel restricted by the expectations that such communities might have of you. It's your identity, and it's up to you to choose what it is.

Also, 31 isn't too old by any means, I don't think so. It's up to you to get procedures and stuff, but it'd be sad if you didn't just because it doesn't seem fair or if you feel that yours is a weird case or if you feel like you're usurping a group of people.

Just be yourself, I guess. There's one message that I think we can all agree with.


Also, don't be sorry. It's not bad to take off a thread from its original rails if the new ones are this interesting.

Quote:
Quote:
I honestly thought it was going to be just angry people telling me that non-feminist spaces were mostly focused on men and their issues

hmmm

issues like prison rape and male genital mutilation? there isn't much in the way of positive public discourse on these things, no.

Yeah, figured as much... However, if I asked instead of demanding it's because I considered the possibility that such spaces might be there and I'm just ignorant about it.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're definitely not too old, MT. There are lots of trans people that don't come out until their forties or fifties. More young people are able to come out, thank goodness, but older people often didn't have the chance to. The standard story is bullshit, and barely fits anyone.

Rape is sexual assault. This is not even close. A trans person identifying as a woman is not invalidating cisgender women. The things you are saying are actually what a lot of TERFs say to invalidate trans people, and to exclude them from things.

There are some ways it is easier to be a trans man, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that trans men can't police each other just as hard. Lots of insisting, "No, this is how you dress" and "Don't do (x) or people will think that you're gay" and "If you do (x) it actually means you're not a man."
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midnight Tea wrote:
I assumed if anything they'd be a little more laid back, since taking male hormones has a lot more dramatic an effect. Being a man doesn't strike me as being that hard if you're not picky about what kind of man you want to be. Just stop caring about your appearance as much etc.

Even though I don't ID as a man I sort of nebulously orbit the general vicinity and am if anything MORE worried about how I look than when I thought I was a girl. In high school I lived in jeans and t-shirts, today I wore a waistcoat and bow tie just to go to uni. And not just with clothes, a huge amount of my hangups with taking HRT is worrying about how I'll look. So many men just look so ugly to me (it probably doesn't help that I have a dislike of body hair with a special hatred reserved for most facial hair) and it sounds shallow, but I want to be at least kind of attractive. I mean, it's not good that there's so much focus on being pretty in trans women communities but at least it gets discussed and people relate, and I doubt doctors/psychs are going to raise an eyebrow about trans women being concerned about their looks. Meanwhile from what I've seen in the ftm community it seems like talking about wanting to be attractive, or god forbid a pretty guy, is basically taboo and will get you dismissed. Well, unless you're talking about being built or some kind of "acceptable" masculine attractiveness. It's like they think you shouldn't care if you end up butt-ugly so long as you're read as male.

Midnight Tea wrote:
Well, again, I'm a weird case -- I have hang-ups about identifying as a woman. One is that it feels really presumptuous, and like I'm demeaning some of what women go through (I follow feminist issues fairly closely) to lay claim to the label. It feels more special somehow if I'm invited into it instead of just jumping at the table and demanding to be served? I dunno, as I said, I'm a neurotic mess as far as that goes.
One way to put is that I very strongly love women beyond even what most men feel, and would be honored beyond words if I was offered a chance to inhabit such a form. Some part of me even insists it's a form of "rape" to grab at femininity as a concept and say "this is mine to do what I want with".

Haha I wish I could offer you that chance but 1) if we had body creation/swapping technology I would be the first in line and 2) I'm not sure if I'm the right person to offer if even if I could, not actually being a girl and all. I don't think it's at all "rape" though, it sounds like you've read and internalised a lot of TERF talking points.

Midnight Tea wrote:
Similarly, I sometimes wonder if the trans label should apply to me because it really was late until I had any problems with who I was. I don't fit the standard story. The best way I could put it is that I was okay with being a boy (aside from having increasingly violent, showboating peers) but really did not want to be a man. And yeah, I didn't actually go through with anything trans people do with medicine or hormones or whatnot so I'm not technically sharing in their struggle today.

There isn't some set level of oppression you need to face to claim the "trans" label. Also I realised at basically the same age (18) and like you, don't fit the standard story at all. I really don't think that should be the deciding factor at all, considering how little trans concepts are explained or explored with kids. Why would you consider that you were something you didn't even know was possible when literally everyone around you is telling you you're a boy or a girl? I think that the trans people that knew from a young age (unless they had really liberal parents) must have a REALLY strong sense of gender and/or sex. So then trans people who don't, go through puberty and only then are like "wait". It's probably going to get better as time goes on thanks to people being more aware that trans people exist outside of exploitative reality shows but a huge problem is likely going to be nominally accepting parents who nevertheless refuse to acknowledge that THEIR child could be trans and never discuss it with them growing up.

Re being okay with being a boy but not a man, I feel this way too. I just cannot bring myself to see saying "I am a man" as anything but a boldfaced lie totally incongruent with who I am. I seriously had to spend forever reconciling that with the fact that I prefer getting read as male. "Man" just has way too much baggage, and I relate to so little of it. Even if I had been born male I doubt I would have ever felt like a man. It honestly baffles me as to why ANYONE identifies as a man half the time.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Issues of men Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

Got me thinking, though... Is there any sort of space or forum with any sort of credibility that discusses the double standards from a male perspective? I'm not particularly interested in joining it, but really the only thing that came to my mind was MRA and those are so infamously plagued by douches that MRA is almost a replacement word for misogynist as far as feminism is concerned.


Well I DUNNO but I occasionally think of shit that sucks for me because I am a guy. I'll even talk about it in the right environment with the right people! But I honestly can see that while the sexist shit that happens to me because I am a guy is .. just, it pales in comparison to what routinely happens to other people who are not men because they are not men, and instead dare to be (gasp) women, genderqueer, trans*

My concerns seem trivial by comparison. Like, I don't invalidate them (and I don't have 'male guilt' or whatever), I just don't see much of a point trying to divert people towards attention to them when there's many much larger proverbial fish to fry.

I also identify, principally, literally every one of my anti-male discrimination events to social problems that are themselves rooted in the consequences of patriarchy, so shitty sexist shit that bubbles back to men like me are, well, fundamentally a product of a society that is shitty to women. SO, there you go.

But if it's not too derailing I could mention the shit that happens to me as a male that I fucking hate! And, assuming the community is mature enough, it won't be a disaster?
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Falkonn



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I consider sinfest (now a days anyways) to be pretty mature. That and given how much people respect you sam I don't think you'll have any problems. I mean we all know that you mean well and that your not trying to be a jerk or anything (if you somehow mangle words in a way that you didn't mean to or something like that, this topic does after all lend itself well to things that can be misconstrued in the wrong context). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and what you have to say personally so I say go for it.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falkonn wrote:
I consider sinfest (now a days anyways) to be pretty mature.

Oh man what if smif and RedEYE came back?
Would they be all like "YO PIMP NINJAS 4 LYFE???"
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