welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Issues of men
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gotta start with: I love kids! To the extent that I would be a middle school teacher if any state would be dumb enough to let me. This is maybe the definition of masochism. But I like kids and I like to hang out with my friends' kids or babysit them.

But these days everyone is suuuuper fucking leery of the mans who want to hang out with kids. I am Schroedinger's Childnapper. Moms are especially trained by today's society and news to automatically be leery of my presence near and/or attention to kids and babies.

Nothing much to do about it except kind of despair that we're sort of cooly socializing kids to be sheltered from persons of the male persuasion. May have some really not-nice effects in the future, 'cause they're growing up in an overprotective bubble anyway and this includes an inherent socialization of worry that half the population is scary abductor mans.

But what are you gonna do about it? Petition moms with a "But not all men .." argument? I just accept their fear as-is and keep my distance in any ambiguous situation.

To counterbalance that with a more frivolous concern: men's business fashion is so stiltingly limited. Oh boy let's accessorize with the little niches what we're playing pretend-its-not-jewelry-strictly like cufflinks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, without a doubt it does reflect on the Patriarchy! Basically every piece of gender differentiation does reflect on that, and it does suck... But it's part of the reason why it made me want t ask this, too.

If a person of a male sex walks into a feminist space talking about the way in which the Patriarchy affects men negatively, he'll inevitably be told "Yeah, it does suck, but take it elsewhere, we are here to discuss the Patriarchy from a female perspective." This reply is by no means wrong, and it's true that there's no way to rationally balance out the issues that males have to go through with the ones of women. But I want to know if there's a right "elsewhere."


It has to do with what stripey said in his first post, too: I think male allies are mostly seen as cheerleaders in the feminist movement. Good that they are there, but they don't get to 'play' as it were. If there was a place with any sort of credibility where topics like the ones discussed here can be tackled, I think that would help in creating more Patriarchy awareness among men and give them a chance to intervene and make a difference too.


And yeah. The all men being potential kidnappers thing does suck. As for me, I don't really have a lot to complain about at a personal level, I suppose. In my teens, though, I would have loved to have someone help me when I was bullied instead of people telling me to man up. Even my psychologist's advice was to punch the bullies in the face, which I'm thankful for not following because it really wouldn't have helped anything.
_________________
Sinfest Juggalo Worshipper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17278
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the bit about men and children is one i was thinking about, and i agree its really screwed up. i mean, you can understand the fear - the consequences of a child being victimized are just so awful - but it misses the point that a) most men aren't pedophiles and b) there are some women out there who also do horrible things to children.

and it's one of those areas that seems really schizophrenic in modern society. we are supposed to be pro-family, men are supposed to be there for their family, provide good examples for their kids, yadda yadda yadda - but only with _your_ kids. so how is a boy supposed to learn how to deal with kids? girls are expected to take an interest in children, to babysit and things like that; boys only seem to be allowed to take care of their own siblings. so great if you have younger siblings, or if you happen to have a really great father who knows all there is to know about fathering - but how many of us have perfect parents?

it's really hard to expect men to be caring members of society if you prevent them from actually caring for members of society.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irrespective of issues specific to patriarchy and the Fear of Men, there's some pretty fucked up shit about the way we overprotect and cocoon children these days anyway.

Boogie-Men, aka the whole socializing children intentionally or unintentionally with a fear of and distance to male identified people, just makes that worse overall. And certainly doesn't help men in upcoming generations be more involved in positions and conditions typically relegated to "that's for girls to do" stuff such as being nurturing to children, childcare, etc. It will be interesting to see how it plays out through my lifetime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17278
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh jeez, yeah - i think about how much of my childhood free time i spent completely out of sight of my parents, even when i was in kindergarten - one does wonder, sometimes, how modern children will survive without someone there to provide a planned schedule, all the time, and keep them safe. there just seems to be so much less opportunity for inventiveness now - in my day, you got a bucket of legos of various sizes and shapes and you made whatever you wanted out of them. i am boggled by the notion that now you make whatever is on the picture of the box (which provides you with instructions on how to make it).

but that's a whole different rant.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that if we had better laws and enforcement about sexual abuse of children, then that fear would lessen.


Also, I was walking through the mall today, and I could not believe what I saw. In Target, there were men's pants/shorts in all flavor of pastels. In Macy's, there was a pair of navy colored shorts with pink and yellow roses all over it. Looked like the quintessential grandma couch. Makes me think there is maybe some progress?

The styles and materials used are ridiculously bland, though. I want to see velvet and lace and ruffles. Not on everything, but on some things, enough to make it not 'cry your eyes out' boring.

I think it's high time everyone starts dressing like super villains, anyway.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17278
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i read the article sam linked after i posted that - seems that rates of stranger abduction are actually really low, and getting lower; a lot of parental fear seems to have been driven by a couple well-publicized incidents that in retrospect turn out not to have indicated any sort of general problem. it mentions that increases in child kidnappings are actually increases of parental kidnapping, stemming from divorce/custody disputes (the FBI groups all kidnappings together). so it's not actually even strangers that parents should be afraid of.

i don't know about dressing like super villains. i'm not sure i have the figure for it. are there any super villains with...how does one term it....sort of comfortable, matronly figures? (i'm a bit behind on my super villains)

(i do wear lots of lace shawls, but that doesn't seem to be particularly villain-y)
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard the perception of the world being more dangerous than it is is a general problem with crime. But people tend to people being less social and spending more time online, and veers into generation gap nonsense.

I know there's a supervillain named the Matron, but I don't know anything beyond that. I just hang out with geeks of superhero stuff, I don't know much personally.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17278
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem with the word 'matron' is that it is also used in the phrase 'prison matron', and in popular media those tend to be super scary. i can easily see one of them being a super villain - for one thing, they are in the perfect position to recruit minions. but that's not quite me.

i'm more like the stoutish women in 1930's hollywood comedies, whose primary role is to be scandalized by various goings-on (except i have no minks)(i'm trying to teach the black cat to lie across my shoulders so she could be taken for a mink, but she prefers to remain standing so she can see everything)(she is one of those effortlessly elegant creatures who has no empathy at all for us fashion-challenged types.)(also, i don't know that i do scandalized particularly well.)(i think i have pearls somewhere - i could work on pearl-clutching. but i'm not sure that's exactly villainous.)
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, abduction is not that much of an issue. we just treat it as though it were a great and serious one and kids' lives are pretty much the result of that these days.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12250
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's part of that problem humans have in evaluating risks. We often mix up the chance of something happening with the magnitude of the consequences if it does happen.

A lottery ticket is something where the odds of success are extremely low, but the risk is also low (you're out a buck or a few bucks). The consequences of success are enormous. We imagine the successful outcome is far more likely than it really is because holy crap a hundred million dollars!

Likewise, the chance of getting attacked by a shark is extremely low. The consequences of shark attacks are potentially huge. Thus we spend an undue amount of time around the ocean worrying about being chomped by sharks, because holy crap Jaws!

Our brains just aren't wired for an intuitively accurate understanding of risk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think there reall is such a thing as a true support network for men in the sense other groups have made for themselves, mainly imho for two reasons.

Men are socialized pretty hamfistedly to not seek help, other than for very specific things. Its often pretty ridiculous. This is pretty common in all patriarchal cultures, ie almost all cultures ever.

The other is that men who have a significant voice in society have very few problems. Thus, the tiny number of cis white men have 0 support if they have problems outside the acceptable range. There are certainly disadvantadged men, they just have no voice. We have some pretty contradictory expectstions for men, especially male victims. Movies and tv are big on violent retribution, which is illegal. And most well adjusted men arent well equiped for the american prison system, so revenge is obviously idiotic. Yet thats what boys are taught, 'deal with your problems, dont ask for help from authority'. Obviously women and children have problems with patriarchal authority too, so the problem here is the attitudes of those in authority.

Again my opinion, but i think if actual mens concerns were presented better, and avoided the wackjobs common to some Men's Rights groups, men might get some better results. Men that have significant disadvantages need to present their issues in a less combatative, and less 'male centered' fashion. Look for common ground and unite with other groups that have basicly the same problem. Ie men abused as children should work to prevent abuse towards all children, and needmto acknowledge that often other groups have much more prevalent abuse problems. Ive not seen much of mra people that take such an angle, which results in disdain from other groups when they feel its neccessary to talk about only mens issues. Many feminists for example arent remotely antimale, but mra stuff is disproportionately androcentric, which pisses people off.

If men cant work with other advocacy groups, they probably arent worthy of respect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
Again my opinion, but i think if actual mens concerns were presented better, and avoided the wackjobs common to some Men's Rights groups, men might get some better results. Men that have significant disadvantages need to present their issues in a less combatative, and less 'male centered' fashion. Look for common ground and unite with other groups that have basicly the same problem. Ie men abused as children should work to prevent abuse towards all children, and needmto acknowledge that often other groups have much more prevalent abuse problems. Ive not seen much of mra people that take such an angle, which results in disdain from other groups when they feel its neccessary to talk about only mens issues. Many feminists for example arent remotely antimale, but mra stuff is disproportionately androcentric, which pisses people off.

If men cant work with other advocacy groups, they probably arent worthy of respect.




WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
risk words

well put!
_________________
butts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OklahomanSun



Joined: 16 Mar 2014
Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midnight Tea wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
If I were to participate in discussions of men-specific problems, I'd prefer to talk about the excessively high rate of incarceration of black men in the USA. Incarceration in the US is a problem generally, but I think this is one of the most urgent parts of it that need addressing. (Some other problems are sexual assault and corporate ownership of prisons.)

Rock on, Stripes. Sometimes when I'm especially bitter, I find myself wondering if the proportion of black inmates -- and labor programs -- are especially high in former confederate states. I find excessive incarceration just another symptom of a mental disease that pretty much the entire USA seems to be suffering, which I talked about in other thread. A culture that has a media that celebrates violence and vindicated individualism.

And yes. I feel like sometimes I'm trapped in the wrong era when I see prison rape jokes thrown about. It's not funny. It's never been funny. It's actually really scary -- the "prison bitch" is usually soft enough to not have been the kind of person to wage an ongoing war with society, but they sure as hell will be once they get out.

Quote:
If you're wanting to talk about how men can approach the patriarchy and gender-based nonsense, that could have some worth.

Also an excellent point. It really is striking to me that you'd think in theory a patriarchy would exist to benefit men, but that's clearly not the case. You don't get to benefit unless you can prove to the patriarchy that you're a "real man". That approval is capricious too.


One of the most important metrics in determining institutional racism is the ratio of incarcerated minorities versus incarcerated whites to the civilian population ratio.

Running that metric, Wisconsin is actually the worst state currently, with Oklahoma a close second. Wisconsin is also one of the worst states to be black in the schools, with black kids getting essentially the shortest end of the stick possible.

Some of that is not necessarily their fault, as Chicago has a fairly poor school system and also a large criminal element which is bleeding over into Wisconsin, but still, there it is.

So that answers your musing a bit, while there is definitely a lot of racism in the south, there are a few offenders up north as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Midnight Tea, I'm kinda right there with you. It wasn't until my later 20's that I began questioning my identity in a significant way. I always felt like I was too old for this to be typical and if I shouldn't have made this realization sooner. Looking back I see that my strict religious upbringing and then having a relationship with a woman I loved for 6 yrs. were responsible for never addressing these issues earlier, but they were still there back then. I'm also not comfortable identify as trans, mainly because I don't feel like I belong completely to either gender or maybe that I belong with both. genderqueer or just queer (as it also covers some asexuality issues) are nice ambiguous catch-all terms that I've found I'm comfortable using.

I've been dismayed by how many groups and organizations feel you have to conform to strict guidelines for a term to apply when these are the people who should be most accepting of anyone who doesn't fit the societal norm.
_________________
Formerly Green_Finn

hey! rock bottom's not that bad
we've got glow-in-the-dark fish down here that's rad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group