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How Big Pharma turned obesity into a desease...
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andrew



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lily wrote:
CTrees wrote:
One must also remember that clothing sizes have been enlarged greatly over the year. A size 16 in Monroe's day is probably a size ten now. I don't remember exactly how huge the sizing difference from when they were established is, but present sizes really do bear little resemblance to what the sizes are "supposed" to mean.


uh, sizes aren't supposed to mean anything, they're pretty much arbitrary. it's not like size 6 is like planck's constant or pi.


Exactly - hence, people who reference Marilyn Munroe's size as a rationalization are incorrectly attempting to use sizes as absolutes.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They actually used to be standardized. Sure, they're technically arbitrary, but so is the length of a mile. It's just in the past few decades that they've become a several inch range that's useful for nothing.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol, fuzzy logic.
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Kilgore



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How exactly does logic play a role in the consistence or lack thereof of women's clothing sizes?
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be why it's fuzzy. Just like some women's clothing.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:

i might say plump, maybe the 3 ladies on the left are plump.

that's distinctly (and pleasantly) different from 'fat' in my reckoning.


andrew wrote:
MsFrisby wrote:
andrew wrote:


Overweight.

As for what determines "overweight," I typically find myself agreeing with defining overweightness based on the standard BF% scale, although there are always exceptions.

Classification Women (% fat) Men (% fat)
Essential Fat 10-12% 2-4%
Athletes 14-20% 6-13%
Fitness 21-24% 14-17%
Acceptable 25-31% 18-25%
Obese 32%+ 25%+

Please note: the BF% chart, not the BMI chart. The BMI chart is a steaming pile of crap.

For the purposes of my defining "overweight," it's typically the high end of "acceptable" and up. Again, there are always exceptions, and there really isn't any way to judge except on a case by case basis. This is one area where generalizations tend to fail miserably, almost every time.

Example for clarification:

Dove's Campaign for Real Beauty attempted to make women comfortable with who they are at what weight they are, an admirable effort, and one I wholeheartedly support. But for the sake of discussion, judging from the statistics posted in the individual biographies and the pictures, two of those six women are what I would consider fat.


Really? Because I wouldn't call a single one of those women fat. This is more what I think of when I think of someone being fat. All of those ladies in the Dove pictures seem to be able to wear normal clothing in a clothing store. They don't seem to need to shop at a special store for fat people or in the "Plus" size department. And I don't know the body fat percentage of every person I pass. I mean, I can make some general guesses that some people are carrying around more weight than they need to than others, but I can't say, "Oh, they are on the borderline between acceptable and obese."


Most people (in America at least, I'm completely unaware of beauty standards for most foreign countries) would agree with you.

Part of the differentiation in opinion rises from the fact that the average weight in America has been exponentially increasing over the last decade; regardless of people constantly referencing the past as the time when "omg, Marilyn Munroe was a size 16 and she was BEAUTIFUL" ad nauseum, people were way, way thinner on average 50 years ago than they are now.

The CDC provides a useful tool. Obesity In America offers helpful comparison charts to further illustrate the point.

It seems to me our tolerance for obesity stems from two factors: this increase in the weight of the average American, and the increased desire for "sensitivity" regarding delicate subjects such as race, gender stereotypes and, of course, weight.

Most of it is semantics; very few people, when using the word "obese," mean it as the BFI does. Heck, the last girl I dated was 34B-26-36, 5'5" and 120 lbs and is technically obese (31% BF). As I said, there are exceptions, enough of them that it's impossible to effectively generalize.

I elect not to participate in the bullshit semantics game. If I think you're overweight, you're fat; this is more descriptor than pejorative, the same way "skinny" is more often descriptor than pejorative, despite many underweight people objecting to the term as vehemently as the overweight object to the use of "fat."

This semantics game, combined with our cultural oversensitivity, is (in my opinion) making it increasingly "okay" to be fat. Granted, there are several recent influences working in the polar opposite direction; the anorexically thin model trend, popular media & culture promoting thinness, etc. etc. etc. But where we've demonized those influences over the past half decade pretty successfully, no one seems to be objecting to making "fat" okay. We see more and more people like those Flion mentioned:

Flion wrote:
...some of my younger classmates are just incredible. And they act as if it's no big deal and definitely not their fault. "It's just the way I am." Well, true, and the way they are is dangerously fat.


To restate the obvious: yes, there are mitigating factors (genetics, health issues, diseases, various other medical conditions) that make it more difficult or physiologically impossible to lose weight responsibly.

So if we can make pills that will help, I am all for them.




bun bun wrote:
This post will make me very unpopular, and I apologise if it offends.

Honestly, the idea of being overweight disgusts me. Not so much in other people as in myself, and I consider myself overweight, because there is avoirdupois there that I have no need for. It's not like I'm saving it up for a famine, for god's sake! I'm not fat, according to BMI or BFI, but it's a symbol, and a symptom of something else.

The point is that being overweight was considered beautiful for a reason about 250 years ago, and that was because it represented excess. It was a symbol, and still is today, of self-indulgence.

Sorry if this makes me sound like a hardass, but recently I've realised that self-indulgence is the one thing I can't stand about my own actions, and it makes me less tolerant of it in other people.

Recently I've had a major crisis in my family, and my life is crashing down around me, and I've suddenly come to the conclusion that a) there's nothing I can do about it and b) I'll be ashamed if I turn out to be the kind of person who isn't strict with myself, even when I'm not particularly happy.

I'm sounding like some sort of self-help manual...er...I like kitties!

Annnyway, I've almost gotten into the swing of this whole "pushing myself as hard as I can" thing without too many slip-ups (pulling an all-nighter with a cold so you can keep up with advanced Japanese is a bad thing, fyi).

And to be honest with you guys, it works for me. It's like the anti-grief. All I mean is that self-indulgence gets you nowhere in the long-term, and making yourself do stuff gives you ammo when the "excrement hits the ventilation system" (Salman Rushdie gave a lecture here recently; I stole that quote from him).

This whole "self-indulgence rant" will make no sense unless I say that obesity is caused by eating too much. Period. You cannot be obese without overeating. Period. Tell a doctor that you gained fifty pounds eating carrot sticks and fizzy water and see if he believes you.



Guccipiggy wrote:
The only skinny girl in the dove ad is the really pale girl. The rest are fat.



Xilonen wrote:
i find it hard to call anyone who looks good in their underwear fat.

i associate fat with unattractiveness, while overweight is less negative. if you are in shape, and thus not cellulite-y, i don't really consider that fat. all those women look great in their undies and are definitely in shape. they may have some extra weight to them, but they don't have the telltale pudge that goes with 'fat.'



crossbow wrote:
i think the dove women are beautiful. i agree with msfris, that if they can shop in a normal clothing store, they're doing fine.

you all have the option of seeing me naked, so i can use myself as an example. my bodyfat is too high, and my bodyweight is too low. there is not a damn thing i can do about it, because i've lost so much muscle mass in my legs that i'll never get back. but technically, i'm probably fat, and i bike and do yoga regularly and eat less than 800 kc every day. doesn't make a lick of a difference.


Desire wrote:
No, he's not.



As someone who has been both starving-skinny (bones sticking out and all) and different times in my life, I can tell you being fat it is not always just about eating too much food/being a glutton/being lazy.

Genetics, physical problems (such as diabetes, thryroid issues, pain, etc), emotional, and mental issues often play a huge part in it.

Expecting someone who is fat to be able to just stop eating bad food or stop being lazy is about realistic as expecting an alcoholic to just stop drinking or a smoker to just stop smoking (and so forth). It's not impossible, many people are able to do it, but more (if not most) people are not able to do it without some help.

Everyone is different, what works well for one person may not work at all for another person. You can not just lump everyone together, or even in two or three main groups. There are too many variations on the theme.



No one would ever call my brother fat. My long-time nickname for him has been "Jack" after Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas because he is tall and so damnned skinny. And the man is solid. Hugging him is like hugging a rock/statue... yet when he had to have some testing done in his brain back in June and they had to run something up through his main artery/vein (I forget which) from groin to brain, it took them three times as long to do the procedure because his veins/arteries were so clogged.

He smokes at least a pack a day so that doesn't help but the real problem is that he eats so badly and has since he's been an adult. He regularly lives on fast food, high-fat junk food, greasy diner food, etc. He doesn't eat much that is actually healthy for him. And the amounts he can eat at a sitting! He can eat more at a meal then most men I've known who weighed over 300 lbs. He never gains weight, he has hardly any fat on his body, but he eats worse then most fat people.

His wife, on the other hand, practically starves herself. She is now as skinny as he is, but she hardly ever eats. When she does eat, it is always healthy food. But she still has problems with her cholesterol being too high. She has her bones jutting out but she still manages to have some fat on her body (which she hates). They're trying to have a baby but she's going to have to gain weight to get pregnant. Luckily, now that they're married (4 months now) she is making my brother eat healthier.

My grandmother always watches what she eats. She's diabetic. And until the last few years, she has always been active and led a healthy lifestyle. But she has always struggled with her weight. No matter how much she only ate healthy food, from a certain point, she just could not lose her "fat." She was not what I would call obese by any sttretch, but by some of the remarks made in this thread, some of you would have considered her so. Yet she did everything she could to stay healthy and control her weight. Her body was very healthy (except for the diabetes) inside; it's the biggest reason she's lived this long (she's 90), but to look at her I think many of you would have labeled her fat and lazy.

My point is that everyone is different and it is not fair to others or ourselves to just lump everyone together. It is not even accurate to assume overweight people are lazy or gluttons or whatever just because they are overweight. Any more then it is to assume people are healthy because they are skinny and look fit.

Are there people who overeat and don't care? Don't want to be healthy. Are too lazy to make any kind of effort? Yes.

But judging by the diet industry though, these are a small minority. Billions are spent by people trying to lose weight and get healthier. It isn't fair to call people lazy because they are used to convenience. How many people will walk 5 miles to work/school everyday when they can drive? How many people will wash all their clothes out by hand when they have a washing machine that will do it much faster and easier?

People don't want to be fat and unhealthy. And there will never be a magical cure all for it. There are just too many reasons for it happening. No pill is going to be able to address all of the causes at once. If taking a pill once a day could help some people (and not hurt them more), then why not? It is not going to work on everyone. But if it can safely help some people, then it should.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have gained +1 skill in Quoting.

DadadadadaDAAA!
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I can say it works in the same way for women's clothing sizes.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
You have gained +1 skill in Quoting.

DadadadadaDAAA!


One day, I will quote God himself.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
CTrees wrote:
You have gained +1 skill in Quoting.

DadadadadaDAAA!


One day, I will quote God himself.


Some people call that "the Bible"
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
CTrees wrote:
You have gained +1 skill in Quoting.

DadadadadaDAAA!


One day, I will quote God himself.


Some people call that "the Bible"


I'm going to make my very own!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
CTrees wrote:
You have gained +1 skill in Quoting.

DadadadadaDAAA!


One day, I will quote God himself.


Some people call that "the Bible"


I'm going to make my very own!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!


The same set of people call that "heresy." Be sure to share the results!

(I'm still five exp away from leveling up my quoting skill, so I'm trying to power level it)
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I paid someone to do that for me..
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Kilgore



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satisfactorily answering my question will require some analysis to go along with the reiteration. Although the quoting did at least make it clear that your post was a response to the thread as a whole, rather than the posts immediately preceding it.
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Bun Bun: Actually, you CAN be obese without being a glutton. Going by the BMI (how craptacular!), a large bodybuilder is obese even if he has less than the recommened amount of body fat. Also, there are many homornal conditions that can lead to being overweight, and inactivity can lead to being fatty even if you don't eat too much.


*sigh*

I defined the meaning of too much fat, as far as I'm concerned. Clinical obesity has nothing to do with it, nor do weightlifters, who are obese because of BMI, an incomplete system.

If you have excess avoirdupois, you are overweight. Doesn't matter about healthy ranges and all that bullcrap. If you don't have enough muscle, you don't have enough muscle, and this is why skinny people can have high fat percentages.

What I am talking about is NOT CLINICAL OBESITY. It is overindulgence.
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