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The goodness of fembots
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iFork wrote:
So, fembots.

First of all, the main problem with their treatment in the comics seems to be not their effects on society but the fact that they are sentient beings with wishes and desires of their own, and their desires, or even the possibility to be educated and shown the whole world so they can form any desires beyond "please my masters"/"kill people" (etc.) are not being satisfied. Allegorically, they're the women being affected rather than the things generating those effects.

So the question in some ways is about whether you can ensure that self-aware entities aren't being abused, like fembots...could be, if they overrode their base programming. However, base programming allowing for the enjoyment of that stuff, plus standard legal protection could help in that regard.

Actually, that raises questions in my mind. How do they design fembots to always enjoy their users? Do they put in different specifications for each? Is it an "imprinting" thing? If it is an imprinting thing that raises other moral questions, actually. Hrm.

As for societal effects, I'll get to that in a bit.



Razz

Um, I think you're just not getting how Tat is using them as a metaphor for how society programs women to behave in a robotic fashion.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:

Rape by maniacs is a very rare case. It is most often committed by (fairly normal) members of primitive societies and lower classes, simply because they act instinctively unable to suppress their urge. In a similar way, infidelity comes from unsatisfied lust. If the said instincts are relieved, no such things would happen.


Quote:
If the spouse is an adequate person, then obviously yes. I can't imagine who would have issues with his partner masturbating.


Tim wrote:
The poor folks are ones who get less resources because wealth is distributed hereditarily instead of by merit. Primitive societies exist because of disparities of development. Every class and society has marginally the same animistic instincts. However, primitive societies have gender inequality and reactionary morals, which empowers rape, and the impoverished have less power to coerce woman to have sex, less resources to maintain stable relationship or family and less education, all of which empowers rape.
The statistical evidence perfectly reinforces this statement as well.


Tim wrote:

Yes, there is. Coercing sex is a choice, where one of participants expects to receive resources for offering his body, while the other expects pleasure and is ready to incur a cost to experience it. Rape is a serious form of violence. Upper classes are less rapey because they have more options available and are statistically more educated

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KillAllMen



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
iFork wrote:
So, fembots.

First of all, the main problem with their treatment in the comics seems to be not their effects on society but the fact that they are sentient beings with wishes and desires of their own, and their desires, or even the possibility to be educated and shown the whole world so they can form any desires beyond "please my masters"/"kill people" (etc.) are not being satisfied. Allegorically, they're the women being affected rather than the things generating those effects.

So the question in some ways is about whether you can ensure that self-aware entities aren't being abused, like fembots...could be, if they overrode their base programming. However, base programming allowing for the enjoyment of that stuff, plus standard legal protection could help in that regard.

Actually, that raises questions in my mind. How do they design fembots to always enjoy their users? Do they put in different specifications for each? Is it an "imprinting" thing? If it is an imprinting thing that raises other moral questions, actually. Hrm.

As for societal effects, I'll get to that in a bit.



Razz

Um, I think you're just not getting how Tat is using them as a metaphor for how society programs women to behave in a robotic fashion.


This is true. And society has set all kinds of idiotic 'expectations' for both sexes, but goodness knows the pressure upon women is light-years more pronounced than what's expected upon men. I hope one day (and this is honest, this isn't Kammy here reverting to 'idiot troll mode') that these kinds of expectations for BOTH SEXES can be laid to rest finally and we can move on with feeling comfortable with ourselves, our bodies and who we are without thinking we need to conform to some silly stereotype on what we 'should' be.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@dennis, that's right, i forgot, before he was a boring troll tim was a hideous stunted trogledyte
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iFork



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want to get back to the original topic Dennis? Let's.


[quote="Dennis J. Squidbunny"]
Tim wrote:

Rape by maniacs is a very rare case. It is most often committed by (fairly normal) members of primitive societies and lower classes, simply because they act instinctively unable to suppress their urge. In a similar way, infidelity comes from unsatisfied lust. If the said instincts are relieved, no such things would happen.


This is a key belief of feminists as well, I thought?

Ah, not the infidelity bit, right. I don't see how the fact that not all infidelity is caused by lust is relevant to whether something will increase/decrease infidelity.

However, unlike some people here I consider fembots to be people, so by sheer virtue of their use infidelity wouldn't be helped really.

Quote:
If the spouse is an adequate person, then obviously yes. I can't imagine who would have issues with his partner masturbating.


I mean, some people might. But I don't think that's the majority at all.

Tim wrote:
The poor folks are ones who get less resources because wealth is distributed hereditarily instead of by merit. Primitive societies exist because of disparities of development. Every class and society has marginally the same animistic instincts. However, primitive societies have gender inequality and reactionary morals, which empowers rape, and the impoverished have less power to coerce woman to have sex, less resources to maintain stable relationship or family and less education, all of which empowers rape.
The statistical evidence perfectly reinforces this statement as well.

Yes, there is. Coercing sex is a choice, where one of participants expects to receive resources for offering his body, while the other expects pleasure and is ready to incur a cost to experience it. Rape is a serious form of violence. Upper classes are less rapey because they have more options available and are statistically more educated



EDIT: There's some weirdness going on with the statistics I found, so I won't incorporate them.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KillAllMen wrote:
[ I hope one day (and this is honest, this isn't Kammy here reverting to 'idiot troll mode') that these kinds of expectations for BOTH SEXES can be laid to rest finally and we can move on with feeling comfortable with ourselves, our bodies and who we are without thinking we need to conform to some silly stereotype on what we 'should' be.

I'm literally just quoting this to say that "Kammy" is the best nickname and I'm probably going to use it for you from now on.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iFork wrote:
You want to get back to the original topic Dennis? Let's.


Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Tim wrote:

Rape by maniacs is a very rare case. It is most often committed by (fairly normal) members of primitive societies and lower classes, simply because they act instinctively unable to suppress their urge. In a similar way, infidelity comes from unsatisfied lust. If the said instincts are relieved, no such things would happen.


This is a key belief of feminists as well, I thought?


wat
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, good things first-world. middle and upper class people don't do the raping. Rolling Eyes

Also, it's a good thing that there's no scholarly research showing the universalness of risky sexual behaviors . . . oh wait: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.520/abstract;jsessionid=C3ED8657FF84FA89DEF67F1DD20CE49B.f03t03

And here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/fashion/28marriage.html

And here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/is-college-teaching-kids-_b_1688876.html
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KillAllMen wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
iFork wrote:
So, fembots.

First of all, the main problem with their treatment in the comics seems to be not their effects on society but the fact that they are sentient beings with wishes and desires of their own, and their desires, or even the possibility to be educated and shown the whole world so they can form any desires beyond "please my masters"/"kill people" (etc.) are not being satisfied. Allegorically, they're the women being affected rather than the things generating those effects.

So the question in some ways is about whether you can ensure that self-aware entities aren't being abused, like fembots...could be, if they overrode their base programming. However, base programming allowing for the enjoyment of that stuff, plus standard legal protection could help in that regard.

Actually, that raises questions in my mind. How do they design fembots to always enjoy their users? Do they put in different specifications for each? Is it an "imprinting" thing? If it is an imprinting thing that raises other moral questions, actually. Hrm.

As for societal effects, I'll get to that in a bit.



Razz

Um, I think you're just not getting how Tat is using them as a metaphor for how society programs women to behave in a robotic fashion.


This is true. And society has set all kinds of idiotic 'expectations' for both sexes, but goodness knows the pressure upon women is light-years more pronounced than what's expected upon men. I hope one day (and this is honest, this isn't Kammy here reverting to 'idiot troll mode') that these kinds of expectations for BOTH SEXES can be laid to rest finally and we can move on with feeling comfortable with ourselves, our bodies and who we are without thinking we need to conform to some silly stereotype on what we 'should' be.



What you should be is competent, successful, and unapologetic.


I feel pretty comfortable telling you this.


Don't enable those who come up with excuses for their own failures.
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KillAllMen



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
KillAllMen wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
iFork wrote:
So, fembots.

First of all, the main problem with their treatment in the comics seems to be not their effects on society but the fact that they are sentient beings with wishes and desires of their own, and their desires, or even the possibility to be educated and shown the whole world so they can form any desires beyond "please my masters"/"kill people" (etc.) are not being satisfied. Allegorically, they're the women being affected rather than the things generating those effects.

So the question in some ways is about whether you can ensure that self-aware entities aren't being abused, like fembots...could be, if they overrode their base programming. However, base programming allowing for the enjoyment of that stuff, plus standard legal protection could help in that regard.

Actually, that raises questions in my mind. How do they design fembots to always enjoy their users? Do they put in different specifications for each? Is it an "imprinting" thing? If it is an imprinting thing that raises other moral questions, actually. Hrm.

As for societal effects, I'll get to that in a bit.



Razz

Um, I think you're just not getting how Tat is using them as a metaphor for how society programs women to behave in a robotic fashion.


This is true. And society has set all kinds of idiotic 'expectations' for both sexes, but goodness knows the pressure upon women is light-years more pronounced than what's expected upon men. I hope one day (and this is honest, this isn't Kammy here reverting to 'idiot troll mode') that these kinds of expectations for BOTH SEXES can be laid to rest finally and we can move on with feeling comfortable with ourselves, our bodies and who we are without thinking we need to conform to some silly stereotype on what we 'should' be.



What you should be is competent, successful, and unapologetic.


I feel pretty comfortable telling you this.


Don't enable those who come up with excuses for their own failures.


Oh, absolutely! Just be successful without purposely screwing over as many people as possible to attain success.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KillAllMen wrote:
Oh, absolutely! Just be successful without purposely screwing over as many people as possible to attain success.

Yeah, believing that this can be true is one of the few things hat keep me from becoming a full blown cynical misanthrope
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OldBailey



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
you say it will solve problems, but in my opinion, it will merely sidestep them. socially inept? can't relate well to potential romantic/life partners? feel the need to dominate/abuse others? get a bot!

so now you still have lonely, social inept, dysfunctional and possibly violent people around, but instead of trying to help them or integrate them into society, you are allowing them to continue with whatever problems they have. is that really curing their problems? i guess it could "cure" society of them, since they would no longer be part of the breeding population (or possibly any part of society at all) - but is that the society we want, one that gives some looked-down-on segment a pacifier and then sends them off to play by themselves?



I apologize for the thread necromancy but I've been wanting to respond to this for quite some time and finally have the chance.

With that said, I'm not so sure I agree with you fully. In the case of people who somehow could be helped then yes, we should help them. However, there are people in the world that won't be able to have steady sexual relations with their preferred gender no matter what they do.

And I think for those people, as well as people who just don't have it in them to do the messy, painful, and expensive work to achieve personal growth(which, of course, may or may not lead to sex)some type of sexbot would be the best of a very poor set of choices.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

damn, how long ago did i write that? i tend to believe you want to go with trying to help people first (even if it is difficult and expensive - but then i have some pretty strong opinions on what a civilized society owes its citizens in terms of health care, including mental health care). if there really is no other way, perhaps a bot would be the answer. but i would think it would need to be a carefully programmed one, not just whatever you pick up over the counter.

i think that was my main objection - it was presented as something you just let people do, rather than actually confront the issue they have. it's letting someone treat their own serious (and possibly contagious) disease with whatever homeopathic remedy catches their eye, rather than sending them to a doctor.
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OldBailey



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
damn, how long ago did i write that? i tend to believe you want to go with trying to help people first (even if it is difficult and expensive - but then i have some pretty strong opinions on what a civilized society owes its citizens in terms of health care, including mental health care). if there really is no other way, perhaps a bot would be the answer. but i would think it would need to be a carefully programmed one, not just whatever you pick up over the counter.

i think that was my main objection - it was presented as something you just let people do, rather than actually confront the issue they have. it's letting someone treat their own serious (and possibly contagious) disease with whatever homeopathic remedy catches their eye, rather than sending them to a doctor.


I would say that I mostly agree with you but I think that we are going to have some type of bot technology LONG before we have a way to treat a lot of the cases I am thinking of(extreme autism, anxiety, lack of social talent, etc.).

I say that because as a society we have made very little progress on dealing with a lot of these issues. On the other hand we already have very basic robotic prototypes that aren't used for sexual purposes as well as slightly more advanced technology that are sex specific(I'm not including a link for that but you can google it if you are curious).

I would guess that we are about 10, 20 years out from Sinfest style bots. On the other hand, I would be amazed if we developed a robust mental health system as well as a way for people to learn how to interact with their preferred sex that isn't taught by sociopaths by 2100 at the earliest.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sinfest bots seem nearly indistinguishable from humans - i'm really not sure where are that close to achieving that.

on the other hand, we have inflatable dolls _now_ (for those who can't handle sex with real people).

i tend to see the order of progress rather differently than you do.
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