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August 21, 2014: Well, hardly ever
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EverythingsJake



Joined: 26 Jun 2014
Posts: 292
Location: The Jazz Age

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jabberjay wrote:
Where this seems to be going is a comparison between "Tats says sex workers are exploited equals he hates expressions of male sexuality" and "retail workers are exploited therefore commerce should be despised."


You may be missing stripeypants' point, but I'll leave that to stripeypants to decide.

Jabberjay wrote:
The "male sexual desire is wrong" has a lot more to do with the fact that any time a male expresses lust in Sinfest they are being a creep, perv, or idiot.


Well, there's the possibility Fuchsia and Criminey, though their relationship still appears all innocence... but there is certainly a dearth of positive sexual relationships apart from the two male gay characters. As for the rest of the male characters, it's not male sexual desire in general that's portrayed as negative. It's creepy, immature, intrusive, self-centered, "me me mine mine now now" lust that Tat has chosen to focus on. Why he seldom chooses to show positive, mature, mutual desire within an adult relationship, I cannot say.

Jabberjay wrote:
It's the dawn of a new golden age of pornography.


Dear God, that I should live to see such a phrase put down in writing, especially at this godawful time of the day.
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EverythingsJake



Joined: 26 Jun 2014
Posts: 292
Location: The Jazz Age

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jabberjay wrote:
Also I know a lot of people who work in retail, and a few people who work in amateur pornography and publishing erotic literature. Only some of them feel like they are being exploited and they all work retail for corporations.


This I had to give some quiet thought to before answering. There are many people working in front of the camera for the porn industry who some will say are exploited and others will say are there by choice. So if one asks the workers themselves, some may say, "I'm not exploited." But even that has to be examined carefully, and here is why.

I have known people in clearly abusive, manipulative relationships who will say, "Oh, no, s/he never hits me, so I wouldn't call it abusive." I have known people married to someone who drinks to such excess that their lives are in shambles who will say, "S/he's not alcoholic... s/he only drinks beer... s/he's not drunk ALL the time... s/he says s/he can quit any time... s/he's only like that sometimes, normally s/he can handle it..."

It's part of the crazymaking that is a characteristic of abusive and exploitative relationships, the sticky part that makes it so hard to climb out of them because the person being abused has often been gaslighted into believing they are not being abused, and that the faults in the relationship lie with them or with other people. "If you'd just keep the house clean and have dinner ready on time... if you weren't such a nag... if you were prettier/more handsome... baby, people who say bad things about me are only trying to break us up, so don't listen to them, in fact, I don't want you talking to them... how dare you call me abusive, you're abusing me by calling me abusive!" and so on. Also the person being abused may feel ashamed and doesn't want others to know what a poor choice they've made, and so the covering, the lying, the enabling that happens, because that person has a stake in making things seem normal.

The point here is that someone who is being exploited may not recognize that they are being exploited, or may have a stake in covering or pretending that they're not.

Hence the testimonial, "I'm not being exploited," is, in the view of an objective social sciences study, worth as much as any testimonial -- a data point of n=1. It may be all the data that you have, but to validate and verify that data, it's important to get other triangulating data, such as direct observations -- and even those are subject to researcher bias, which has to be recognized upfront.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jabberjay wrote:

Where this seems to be going is a comparison between "Tats says sex workers are exploited equals he hates expressions of male sexuality" and "retail workers are exploited therefore commerce should be despised."


The point is: If you think that complaining about exploitation of sex and adult entertainment workers is condemning sexuality, do you think condemnation of other exploited workers also condemns the human impulses/needs/etc that the industry serves?

Edit: I should clarify that this doesn't mean that literally every single retail worker is unhappy or doing a job they don't like. And I don't understand why you would get that from what is being said.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3247

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: August 21, 2014: Well, hardly ever Reply with quote

On a separate note:


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2013-04-30

Is this woman overreacting or not? Discuss. Or not.

===

On another separate note:


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2000-10-11

Anyone else kind of miss Slick's outfit there? I mean, it at least gave him a break from white shirt / red tie now and then.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: August 21, 2014: Well, hardly ever Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Is this woman overreacting or not?

Not.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While in the archives on another matter, I found that Squig had already explained his bond with porn:


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2009-05-08

So, in Squig's mind, nobody understands him except for images of women, not actual women, just images of women. And he gets made to feel guilty even for that. Not enough therapy in the world...
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: August 21, 2014: Well, hardly ever Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
On a separate note:


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2013-04-30

Is this woman overreacting or not? Discuss. Or not.



I can confirm that if I were walking outside and some guy looked me up and down and said 'not bad', I would be 100% guaranteed to not feel safe and at the very least speed up my step, which is exactly what the woman is doing here. Note that even this timid and non-offensive response makes the situation escalate, i.e. makes him yell at her in an entitled way and demand to know what she didn't like about him. Which is half the problem with street harassment - there's always the danger of it escalating.

As for the porn industry, I'd be a hell of a lot more ready to accept it if it didn't have such a vast and negative effect on body acceptance for women. And I'm not just talking about things like attractiveness in general, I'm talking about ridiculously specific fads in the porn industry, like what the 'perfect' nipple size is for a woman to have (very very tiny, which makes women with larger nipples feel like there's something wrong with them), or what the genitals are supposed to look like (a "porn star's vagina", also clean-shaven, never mind the multitude of health risks you get from shaving in the bikini area). There's a whole bunch of weirdly specific crap that's only become popularised in the beauty industry because it took off in the porn industry, and women are being made to feel like crap about it and pressured into either being miserable about their bodies or spend time and money on (potentially risky) cosmetic surgery to look like the models on TV who are directly inspired by the models in porn.

And that's without even dipping a toe into the vast sea of ugliness that is the *behaviour* of women in the most highly demanded porn and what it tells men about women's submissiveness and what sexual practices are normal.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: August 21, 2014: Well, hardly ever Reply with quote

The strip that preceded that strip is a lot like that strip except that it's completely different.


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2013-04-29
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it _is_ completely different - because she kept her 'i would hit that' thoughts to herself, instead of chasing after the guy demanding he appreciate her expressing her appreciation.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
it _is_ completely different


Well, that's what I said. I was highlighting the irony of the juxtaposition or some such thing.

The fact that she didn't bother to keep her disgust for Squig to herself is something else again. Some might think that nine years is a long time to hold a grudge.


http://sinfest.net/view.php?date=2004-12-18
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EverythingsJake



Joined: 26 Jun 2014
Posts: 292
Location: The Jazz Age

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It hardly requires a long-standing grudge for someone to say "ew" at the sight of someone else openly looking at XXX porn in a public park.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10567
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to get too involved, but I think I need to point something out:

Squig isn't just looking at porn, he's looking at porn in a public space.

And it differs from other mediums (hello Fifty Shades of Grey) in that it's visual and anyone casting their glance in that direction may become an unwilling participant in what is most definitely a sexual experience.

That's right: Squig reading porn in public is a sex crime.
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