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Why is it so hard to get a reasoned discussion about stuff?
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Why is it so hard to get a reasoned discussion about stuff? Reply with quote

Of course, I mean the controversial stuff. You know, the kind I mean. Stuff loaded with deep moral implications people are certain to disagree about.... I mean nearly anyone can have a reasoned discussion about Pizza. As much as I like pizza I just don't get offended while discussing it... Well, not most of the time, but those fundamentalist moronic dickhead anchovie lovers can kiss my ass and rot in hell.... Ahem...


Anyway, I've been thinking about it. Some of it is made worse by the press and their love of oversimplifications, and lurid lead ins to garner ratings. This is a shame, but to be expected where money is at stake. Then there are the muck rakers and trouble stiring types who like to fire off nasty accusations, or name calling, get a good fight started between opposing sides and sit back to watch. Now, while this is a time honored method of entertainment among my Irish relatives, it's not generally used maliciously though....

I don't know, I can think of a million more reasons too, and they probably all have some grain of truth... Are people really so confrontational they can't at least listen to each other?

What set this post off is an e-mail I got from a friend who is MUCH more religiously inclined than me. They clearly sent it expecting me to agree with it's content... This really suprised me as I found said content to be disturbing in the extreme. This is it:

"Pastor with Guts

This Pastor has guts!! Thought you might enjoy this interesting Prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their Senate. It seems Prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe right was asked to open the New session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the sual generalities, but this is what they heard:

"Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to Those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost Our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values.

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem.

We have abused power and called it politics.

We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from Every sin and set us free. Amen!"


The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest. In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where >Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of Those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and Korea.

Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, "The Rest Of the Story," and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over our nation and Wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called "one nation Under God."

If possible, please pass this prayer on to your friends. "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything."

Think about this: If you forward this prayer to everyone on your e-mail list, in less than 30 days it would be heard by the world. How many people in your address book will not receive this prayer....do you have the

Guts to pass it on? "

Now much of what's in there is well said, but it's like it's trying to lull the audience into complacency for the later comments. Am I the only one that caught the "freedom of expression" comment in there as being a bit less "common sense" and a bit more loaded than the rest? Who, after all, gets to decided what pornagraphy is? Of course, after pornagraphy anything else that offends sensibilities is fair game and when it comes right down to it, WHO DECIDES?

Needless to say, I didn't reply to, or forward the e-mail. I don't know, maybe I'm being too sensitive. I didn't reply to the e-mail largely because I knew I'd offend this lady, and frankly, she's not out to curtail anyone's freedoms, and certainly does mean well....

Okay this is out of my system now. Thanks for reading it. Am I weird for worrying about stuff like this?
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timmccloud



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 633
Location: Marshall, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa dude. Look, this is a forum of highly intelligent, opinionated people who have a sarcastic, twisted sense of humor, proven by the fact they read sinfest.

You want deep moral implications, go find a mensa forum on philosophy.
Although I admit, this place isn't a bad second choice.

In this forum, you are going to get twirted sarcastic intellegent humor, with a dose of extreme opinionism.

I'm surprised after 120+ posts in the new forum you haven't figured that out yet...

But hey, someone will bite your hook and give you at least two pages before we get bored with the topic.
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Bunnubis!



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
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Location: Oklahio

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking about hot-button issues personally can only do one of two things; inspire everyone around you to burst into a mad bout of "Here here" or piss them off. Seriously, in all the debates I've had, no matter how much scientific evidence I've found, the other party has found just as many reasons to feel completely justified in their belief, and all we do is clash. We never change our minds or even open them for a second; we just butt horns.

So, in other words, no one wants to be dragged into it, sir.

You're not weird for giving a damn, you just haven't learned the futility of it yet.

But I digress...
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cixelsyD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS ENDS NOW!
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 2565
Location: Alba Nuadh

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The easy reply would be to say, "While you have every right to express your fundamentalist Christian doctrine, I have every right to ignore it." Very Happy
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bunnubis! wrote:
Talking about hot-button issues personally can only do one of two things; inspire everyone around you to burst into a mad bout of "Here here" or piss them off. Seriously, in all the debates I've had, no matter how much scientific evidence I've found, the other party has found just as many reasons to feel completely justified in their belief, and all we do is clash. We never change our minds or even open them for a second; we just butt horns.

So, in other words, no one wants to be dragged into it, sir.

You're not weird for giving a damn, you just haven't learned the futility of it yet.

But I digress...



I liked this answer. Smile


I didn't like the one above telling me all about a forum I've been posting on for years, as though I don't pay attention.... Yeah, that one was kinda ikcy.... I did, however, invite comments. So, he gets free beer too.
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cixelsyD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one listened to me! Whos sister do you have to assault to get some attention around here?
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Bunnubis!



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
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Location: Oklahio

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine <3
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Virginia (Much barfiness)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely his sister. Mine would totally kick your ass! If she'd been born four hundred years ago she'd be a Viking Warrior Princess. As it is, she's a nurse, a bossy older sister, and meaner than a rattlesnake with a tooth ache.
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jsimpleton



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reply to title: because this is an open forum, if you wanted a reasoned discussion bring a friend to the pub and get a pint or two.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-Girl: Warrior Princess
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Halen



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is it so hard to get a reasoned discussion about stu Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:
Needless to say, I didn't reply to ... the e-mail.


That would be why you don't have discussions. The reason you don't have reasoned discussions is because you're apparently friends with lunatics. I generally reply to emails like that with a measured and politely phrased "piss off".
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mom gets emails like this all the time. Sometimes she is silly enough to pass them on to me. Every time I find an email that a) is wrong or b) has some things in them that I completely disagree with, I tell her and explain why I think that way. She has actually started to read emails more carefully and she is becoming more informed.

'Course, my mommy is just cool like that. She may not agree with me but she will always listen. Rare. It does make discussions possible. I know that I can never sway anyone without time but being able to discuss rationally is a big help.

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Desire



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bunnubis! wrote:
Talking about hot-button issues personally can only do one of two things; inspire everyone around you to burst into a mad bout of "Here here" or piss them off. Seriously, in all the debates I've had, no matter how much scientific evidence I've found, the other party has found just as many reasons to feel completely justified in their belief, and all we do is clash. We never change our minds or even open them for a second; we just butt horns.


(bolded for emphasis)

I disagree. There are a good number of open-minded people in Sinfest. I have seen people change their minds as results of debates here (here = this new forum and the old one). Hell, I have changed my opinions on certain topics because of some of the debates here. Some are still in the process of changing but hey, just because something isn't instantaneous, doesn't mean it won't influence someone or give them something to think about over time.
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E-boy



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I didn't reply to her e-mail is because while I understand her wistful desire for "simpler times", I believe the kinds of oversimplification and thoughts behind that "prayer" are far more dangerous in their implications than most realize or really want to think about.

Appealing to a "less offensive" conduct in the general public, implies a universal set of values we clearly don't have. Leading one to wonder, "Who decides?". As this is the last thing on her mind, and bringing it up would likely offend her when she meant well, I chose to be silent. Had she supplied the e-mail of the man who uttered said prayer, I'd certainly reply to him.

My friend is far from stupid, but she's most assuredly non-political in her thinking. She and I have had the "What's so wrong with PC?" discussion more times than I can count and she still doesn't quite grasp that it's a wee bit different than simple considerate behavior.

Then again, maybe she understands perfectly and just doesn't give a fuck, but that would seem to go against her rather soft heart and desire for everyone to get along.

Maybe the best analogy I can make is one to marriage. Many married couples, if not all, have subjects they, at some point, come to avoid. Why? Because it's easier to avoid the topic in question than it is to fight, and a fight with someone you like, is neither productive nor pleasant nine times out of ten. One of those pick your battles, learn tolerance, agree to disagree things.
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