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Why is it so hard to get a reasoned discussion about stuff?
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Halen



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1883
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesn't explain in any way why you didn't reply to her. If she's open to that sort of debate, then clearly she's exactly the sort of person you should be having them with.

You're an odd one.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12316
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, E-Boy! I thought PC was for The Liberals!
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Bunnubis!



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Oklahio

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desire wrote:
Bunnubis! wrote:
Talking about hot-button issues personally can only do one of two things; inspire everyone around you to burst into a mad bout of "Here here" or piss them off. Seriously, in all the debates I've had, no matter how much scientific evidence I've found, the other party has found just as many reasons to feel completely justified in their belief, and all we do is clash. We never change our minds or even open them for a second; we just butt horns.


(bolded for emphasis)

I disagree. There are a good number of open-minded people in Sinfest. I have seen people change their minds as results of debates here (here = this new forum and the old one). Hell, I have changed my opinions on certain topics because of some of the debates here. Some are still in the process of changing but hey, just because something isn't instantaneous, doesn't mean it won't influence someone or give them something to think about over time.


Just speaking from personal experience. I've only been here a couple of days. I'm glad people are open-minded, but I've not been exposed to enough open-mindedness to say that I agree or disagree.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12316
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally speaking we don't have people so open-minded that their brains are leaking out, which I consider a welcome relief from most other places. Man, some fora have floors that are just plain hazardous with all the slippery brain goo lying around.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17432
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if you've only been here a couple of days, how do you know we never change our minds? and just because the people who do the most vociferous arguing don't change, doesn't mean that other people who are just reading the thread don't put some thought in what _they_ think about the subject - and often, the people not arguing haven't put in much thought about the subject at all, so it is good for them to be exposed to the argument.

and while i don't know the lady e-boy is talking about, i can see situations in which it would be difficult to discuss. if my aunt had email, this is exactly the sort of thing she would send me. she's a nice, christian lady, not a mean bone in her body; she knows what _she_ means by cursing and pornography, and it's bad, and she can't see how condemning them are an attack on free speech. and i'm not sure how i could convince her.

pity, because the man did say a few things - i like that he condemned people shooting abortion doctors as well as people getting abortions (although one can get into an argument that he has set up a simplistic situation with abortions, which requires a more complex solution than a short prayer).

but particularly when you are talking across a political divide, it is getting more and more difficult to discuss sensitive issues. everything seems to be so _laden_ these days, so when you start on one subject, it's almost like you are tagged with all the other things that people want to attach to it. so (for example) if you want to discuss why welfare is more than just giving lazy people a handout, suddenly you are a baby-killing, profanity-spouting, terrorist-supporting bush-hater.

well, ok, maybe i _am_ all those things - but it's not really a function of my views on the roll of welfare in society.
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Secret



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 5429

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is it so hard to get a reasoned discussion about stu Reply with quote

E-boy wrote:


"Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to Those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost Our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values.

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem.

We have abused power and called it politics.

We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from Every sin and set us free. Amen!"


Also, the straw man wants a brain.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
so (for example) if you want to discuss why welfare is more than just giving lazy people a handout, suddenly you are a baby-killing, profanity-spouting, terrorist-supporting bush-hater.

So you're saying that if I defend welfare I'll get abducted, detained without trial, and executed?
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Desire



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 587
Location: AK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bunnubis! wrote:
Desire wrote:
Bunnubis! wrote:
Talking about hot-button issues personally can only do one of two things; inspire everyone around you to burst into a mad bout of "Here here" or piss them off. Seriously, in all the debates I've had, no matter how much scientific evidence I've found, the other party has found just as many reasons to feel completely justified in their belief, and all we do is clash. We never change our minds or even open them for a second; we just butt horns.


(bolded for emphasis)

I disagree. There are a good number of open-minded people in Sinfest. I have seen people change their minds as results of debates here (here = this new forum and the old one). Hell, I have changed my opinions on certain topics because of some of the debates here. Some are still in the process of changing but hey, just because something isn't instantaneous, doesn't mean it won't influence someone or give them something to think about over time.


Just speaking from personal experience. I've only been here a couple of days. I'm glad people are open-minded, but I've not been exposed to enough open-mindedness to say that I agree or disagree.


Perhaps it isn't best to speak in absolutes when you're in unfamilar territory then? Razz

As someone who has spent many years on different types of forums, I can tell you Sinfest is a rarity.
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death_to_dib



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 288
Location: Its getting colder in hell.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose ive been very lucky in life because i know several people that are idealogically different than me but will argue with me intelligently and competently. I live in a pretty republican state. Im not. My best friend's family die hard republican. He and i can sit down and talk about almost any issue frontwards and backwards and not have it get personal or insulting. i might not always be able to change his mind and he might not always be able to change mine, but were at least able to listen to each other and get our points across. Id also disagree that no one on this forum is willing to see the other side of the arguement. This is the most reasonable place on the internet ive ever seen. Hell getting a conservative like Ags that actually tries to back up his agruements with facts is amazing. Most places its "ALL YOU DAMN BUSH HATERS WANT TO SUCK OSAMAS DICK BECAUSE YOUR ALL GAY!! WHITE POW- ohh whoops... i mean... REPUBLICANS RULE!!"
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17432
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
mouse wrote:
so (for example) if you want to discuss why welfare is more than just giving lazy people a handout, suddenly you are a baby-killing, profanity-spouting, terrorist-supporting bush-hater.

So you're saying that if I defend welfare I'll get abducted, detained without trial, and executed?


apparently, yes.

i need to start learning morse code, so we can communicate with each other by tapping on the pipes.
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timmccloud



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 633
Location: Marshall, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And low and behold two pages of posts.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be icky, I was just posting on the futility of this specific subject. People will respond, and there will be discussion, it's just that I think your expectations are a little high for this particular topic.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alas, you are showing your newbie-ness. we may not come to a conclusion on why reasoned debate doesn't seem possible - but it's the sort of question that we _will_ debate to death.
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Major Tom



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and die defending your right to die debating it

...to death
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timmccloud



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 633
Location: Marshall, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We shall see. I think this is going to get two pages of serious debate, and then the forum will be hijacked to something else, and never come back.

See E-Boy! I'm actually helping you, by making a prediction like this, because the contraryness of the sinfesters will FORCE it to be a 30 page discussion just to prove me wrong.

Love it, Love it. Please continue...
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10702

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pah!
if that were true you'd just have sealed your doom since we can't disagree with you without agreeing with you, and so, if we were true contrary populists we'd only continue when predicted not too do so we'd all have to hold back now, for fear of being called out.

Luckily for you, I'll just mu that last post.

MU
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