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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11331

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's probably a three tier shit-ladder going on with that.

Tier One is when people sincerely believe in libertarianism because they honestly think it will make life better for everyone on the whole

Tier Two is when they're vaguely aware that they're Fuck You Got Mine assholes, but the ideas that libertarianism spoon feeds them about how their being a selfish asshole is actually what is good for everyone else is a great mechanism to help make them feel better and cognitively ease themselves and help them feel like they're actually good people

Tier Three is when they're total psychopaths who legitimately don't care whose lives they fuck up to enrich themselves and they fuckin know it, but being a part of the libertarian communities provides them both with an ideological veneer for their galling egoism and a ready supply of gormless fuckwits who are easier than average to sucker into lopsided contracts because they all like to imagine they're gonna be next in the captains of industry crowd.

Normally I would hate the tier three people more than your average libertarian but when you think about it it means that they have to do appallingly painful shit like force themselves to read ayn rand books and bitcoin primers and memorize enough cryptolibertarianism to regurgitate at potential marks, and that's a decent enough self-inflicted punishment for me to call it even stevens with them.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
There's probably a three tier shit-ladder going on with that.

Tier One is when people sincerely believe in libertarianism because they honestly think it will make life better for everyone on the whole

Tier Two is when they're vaguely aware that they're Fuck You Got Mine assholes, but the ideas that libertarianism spoon feeds them about how their being a selfish asshole is actually what is good for everyone else is a great mechanism to help make them feel better and cognitively ease themselves and help them feel like they're actually good people

Tier Three is when they're total psychopaths who legitimately don't care whose lives they fuck up to enrich themselves and they fuckin know it, but being a part of the libertarian communities provides them both with an ideological veneer for their galling egoism and a ready supply of gormless fuckwits who are easier than average to sucker into lopsided contracts because they all like to imagine they're gonna be next in the captains of industry crowd.

Normally I would hate the tier three people more than your average libertarian but when you think about it it means that they have to do appallingly painful shit like force themselves to read ayn rand books and bitcoin primers and memorize enough cryptolibertarianism to regurgitate at potential marks, and that's a decent enough self-inflicted punishment for me to call it even stevens with them.

Isn't tier two the type that legitimately thinks "Trickle down only failed because they Government was too involved" while tier three is honestly impressed and jealous of Trump's "success"?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11331

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had to guess I would believe that most libertarians don't believe trickle down has failed. They will either believe it has a great track record marred only by governmental impediment, or they will say that trickle down was an 'incomplete first step' of some sort to a much more ideal and deregulated system, much like you can believe that the ACA is an incomplete first step to a much more ideal universal healthcare.

And lots of people are impressed or jealous of trump's success. I'm fairly impressed with the strategies at play when he used bankruptcy law to leave other people footing the bill for his disasters, and I'm sure many people are jealous that he essentially gets to inherit the capital necessary to be a real estate mogul, then claim it's all on account of his business savvy.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
And lots of people are impressed or jealous of trump's success. I'm fairly impressed with the strategies at play when he used bankruptcy law to leave other people footing the bill for his disasters, and I'm sure many people are jealous that he essentially gets to inherit the capital necessary to be a real estate mogul, then claim it's all on account of his business savvy.


and the rest of the republican primary field is jealous of trump's ability to just say outlandish shit and get billions of dollars of free advertising and the unquestioned media presumption that he's a serious candidate for it
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump's advantage in the primary thus far is, indeed, that he is stupid enough to just say what the conservative core believes, while the establishment republicans have been working hard to language frame and carefully code-word those issues to placate the core while not alienating them from minorities even harder.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, the US definition of libertarianism, we meet again.
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Professor_Frink



Joined: 21 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Trump's advantage in the primary thus far is, indeed, that he is stupid enough to just say what the conservative core believes, while the establishment republicans have been working hard to language frame and carefully code-word those issues to placate the core while not alienating them from minorities even harder.


EXACTLY. He doesn't use the dog whistle. He uses a vuvuzela. And it makes the GOP so mad.

As much as I worry about what it's doing to political discourse (which, let's face it, is already fuckled) it is amazing to watch. "No no, you're not supposed to say that "illegals" are rapists, you're just supposed to heavily imply it."
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ShadowCell



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also we were talking about anarchists here a page ago? 'cuz my experience with anarchists is more like "hardcore libertarians with a pinch of heath ledger joker," or like end-stage terminal cynicism or something

maybe i just know some obnoxiously hardcore libertarians? i dunno there's a point where a certain strain of anarchism is indistinguishable from hardcore libertarianism/supervillainy so lol wtf
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do I put this? The most 'real' anarchist I know, as in someone who has given real time and thought to anarchy as a philosophy and a way of life, not just some meat space troll, is my professor buddy in England who teaches at the University of Essex.

It still kinda blows my fucking mind, but he's literately become a significant world figure in the academic study of anarchy related topics, but it's not that that's really a huge population of folks to begin with.

Suffice to say, he knows a thing or two about anarchy.

Anywho, from what I've gotten from talking to him over the years, much, if not most of the stuff he writes about has little to no practical application currently and serves better as a lens and filter for examination and reflection to be utilized by think tanks to work towards creating my readily implementable solutions. This kinda drives him nuts at the same time though because he really can't stand the idea of just sitting around talking about how things should be better from a removed, academic perspective yet he also realizes that the realities of getting his ideas actually applied are quite harsh indeed.

For example, he basically is employed by the school to help them look good and well rounded. He came to this realization, when his immediate boss (who interviewed him during his hiring process) said to him, after he'd been at the school a couple of semesters:

"Really? You're actually an anarchist? I just thought you said that stuff when we were hiring you just to look edgy and cool. Good on you for keeping it up. Keep fighting the good fight."

Then went off to a meeting.

Which he was actually kinda okay with since his more recent work has been focusing on how broken higher education is and how devalued degrees and certificates are becoming, so the comment was basically a 'proof of concept' sort of thing.

**********

Oh, and I did ask him about the current thread topic, specifically the agency demonstrated by his incoming freshmen, and he says (I'm can't find his words, but I roughly remember) "That while to some freshmen are more 'brittle', he sees students as a whole as having a different set of skills than the ones before and that things are more 'different' as opposed to being 'better' or 'worse', and that most problems come from folks trying to act upon ideas and practices in a society that isn't quite ready for them."
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11331

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
also we were talking about anarchists here a page ago? 'cuz my experience with anarchists is more like "hardcore libertarians with a pinch of heath ledger joker," or like end-stage terminal cynicism or something

maybe i just know some obnoxiously hardcore libertarians? i dunno there's a point where a certain strain of anarchism is indistinguishable from hardcore libertarianism/supervillainy so lol wtf


I think I could explain that. There's a group called "anarcho-capitalists" and they arent anarchists at all, they're the dementedly super hardcore no compromises megalibertarians
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

like check these guys out yo

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Quote:
"Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error."
ŚNoam Chomsky
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ShadowCell



Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well gosh that just sounds like a fucking comic book supervillain

like the sort of thing you'd say to the entire world when you are threatening to destroy it with your orbital laser, before james bond shows up and kills you
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They really are. And they appear to be one of the ultimate pinnacles of doomed ideology. You have to combine the fanaticism of neoreactionary ideologues with a complete failure to recognize the implications of social contract incentives. Much like the anti-vax movement can only exist because of the privilege of living in a world where vaccines succeeded (thus affording them the privilege of not having experienced the horrors ofpolio, smallpox, measels, rubella, mumps, etc), the anarcho-capitalist movement can only exist because of the privilege of living in a first world nation that is the safest and most prosperous social experiment ever in human history (thus affording them the privilege, from their computer chair, to denounce the benefits of any sort of civil monopoly on violence)
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Darqcyde



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was on my facebook today:


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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11331

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not me

I like my supermarkets and my smartphones and my air conditioner and my well-paid doctors with machines carefully crafted with billions of dollars in highly structured heirarchical institutions of science and commerce THANKS
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