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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by the way, meant to ask - where in the bible does it say smoking and drinking are sins? i mean, jesus turned water into wine, which suggests he's not totally against the occasional glass.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
by the way, meant to ask - where in the bible does it say smoking and drinking are sins? i mean, jesus turned water into wine, which suggests he's not totally against the occasional glass.


You know, you are definitely one of the freindlier posters here. It never says that drinkink is a sin, but when I use it in an argument as such (and I should have clarified this) I am referring to being drunk, which is a sin. Smoking is a desecration of the temple of god, which is one's body and therefore is condemned by inference.

PS: I dont drink, which throws people off, because I have made a personal choice not to.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17282
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
mouse wrote:
by the way, meant to ask - where in the bible does it say smoking and drinking are sins? i mean, jesus turned water into wine, which suggests he's not totally against the occasional glass.


You know, you are definitely one of the freindlier posters here. It never says that drinkink is a sin, but when I use it in an argument as such (and I should have clarified this) I am referring to being drunk, which is a sin. Smoking is a desecration of the temple of god, which is one's body and therefore is condemned by inference.


so anything that "desecrates the temple" is a sin? like, not eating enough fiber or getting your vitamins? and how does this fit in with your belief that it is pointless to feed starving people - are we not them assisting them in sinning (by destroying their bodies through malnutrition), if we refuse to feed them?

and why do you permit inference in the whole desecration matter, and not on things like the genesis story? (or the flood - two different versions of that one, as well)

....i'm not necessarily friendly, just polite.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
so anything that "desecrates the temple" is a sin? like, not eating enough fiber or getting your vitamins? and how does this fit in with your belief that it is pointless to feed starving people - are we not them assisting them in sinning (by destroying their bodies through malnutrition), if we refuse to feed them?

and why do you permit inference in the whole desecration matter, and not on things like the genesis story? (or the flood - two different versions of that one, as well)


Smoking is intentional, as all sin must be for it to be sin. Withholding food from the starving would be a sin, and I never said it was pointless. I said making sure they are saved is more important. Starving yourself is also a sin, but I cannot judge whether eating "unhealthy food" is. Probably not, unless you are trying to hurt yourself.

Two versions of the flood, eh? And I explained my views on the creation story.
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Twister87
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, wow this thread's gone to the home cinema as well! How much is the popcorn here?

Secondly, wow, off-topic.

Thirdly,
MellowFish wrote:
Smoking is a desecration of the temple of god...

...call me uneducated to your biblical ways, but how does smoking "desecrate god's temple"? I was led to believe that smoking wasn't discovered by Christian society until they went to the Americas in ooh, about 1200 years after christianity was first formally recognised.

Edit: I don't condone smoking by the way. I think it's disgusting. And again that's another story.
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
Smoking is intentional, as all sin must be for it to be sin. Withholding food from the starving would be a sin, and I never said it was pointless. I said making sure they are saved is more important. Starving yourself is also a sin, but I cannot judge whether eating "unhealthy food" is. Probably not, unless you are trying to hurt yourself.


If everything that I do is being divinely monitored... then why do I exist at all? If God was pulling the strings behind my life, then it would invalidate me and any choices I make. So I can't do anything detrimental to myself? Well, that's bullcrap. It sounds like a breach of free will if you ask me. Isn't that the paradox though? I'm supposedly given the capability to do anything I want... but i'm expected to do things a certain way to appease a pre-laid set of rules. What you're saying is that sin is in the minds eye. Was smoking a sin before people knew it was bad for them? Is it still a sin to those people who believe that the stress relief offered by smoking is more important than their long-term health?
God certainly likes to complicate things. I think I prefer giving the sky the finger and letting whoever wants to smoke, smoke up. It's not my place to tell them what to do, so why should it be yours-- even if you are so benignly educating others on the folly of anything bad on God's behalf?


Last edited by Inept Villain on Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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MellowFish



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twister87 wrote:
...call me uneducated to your biblical ways, but how does smoking "desecrate god's temple"? I was led to believe that smoking wasn't discovered by Christian society until they went to the Americas in ooh, about 1100 years after christianity was first formally recognised.


This is the reason I said it was a sin by inference: It is a desecration of the body through intentionally damaging it. That is also why suicides have been traditionally held as unforgivable sins, but I cannot make any statement in support of that idea. The only thing I have read is the god will forgive us for any sin except blashpheming the holy spirit through rejecting god's offer of salvation.

in addition, smoking, drinking in excess, and doing drugs are all in violation of the first commandment: you are putting a substance in god's rightful place in your life, trusting to it for comfort instead of him.
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
...in addition, smoking, drinking in excess, and doing drugs are all in violation of the first commandment: you are putting a substance in god's rightful place in your life, trusting to it for comfort instead of him.


You see, there's the key point. God doesn't offer me any comfort.
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MellowFish



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inept Villain wrote:
MellowFish wrote:
...in addition, smoking, drinking in excess, and doing drugs are all in violation of the first commandment: you are putting a substance in god's rightful place in your life, trusting to it for comfort instead of him.


You see, there's the key point. God doesn't offer me any comfort.


I am such a bad christian: I see your avatar and a bubble of hate comes to the front. But since there is a person loved by god behind the avatar, I will try to contain myself.

I am not sure how to answer your point execpt this: You probably have not been to a place where only the love of god could pull you through. The reason many converts are former alcoholics or drug addicts is that these peole hit rock bottom and then are more open to hearing god's side of the argument. God uses pain as a megaphone to deaf ears of his lost children. To those who have accepted his love, it is a reminder not to trust to anything the world has to offer, and a reminder that this world is not our home.
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Inept Villain



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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Location: A place of unending, horrifying mediocrity.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
Inept Villain wrote:
MellowFish wrote:
...in addition, smoking, drinking in excess, and doing drugs are all in violation of the first commandment: you are putting a substance in god's rightful place in your life, trusting to it for comfort instead of him.


You see, there's the key point. God doesn't offer me any comfort.


I am such a bad christian: I see your avatar and a bubble of hate comes to the front. But since there is a person loved by god behind the avatar, I will try to contain myself.

I am not sure how to answer your point execpt this: You probably have not been to a place where only the love of god could pull you through. The reason many converts are former alcoholics or drug addicts is that these peole hit rock bottom and then are more open to hearing god's side of the argument. God uses pain as a megaphone to deaf ears of his lost children. To those who have accepted his love, it is a reminder not to trust to anything the world has to offer, and a reminder that this world is not our home.


Don't knock the devil, man. He's one of my favorite fictional characters. Lil' Evil too. More to the point... the avatar is hilarious. I suspect that you may be a robot because you didn't laugh at it.

That's an interesting (and disturbing) basis for spiritual communication. So i'll never know the joys of religious fervor unless my life plummets into absolute abyssmal shit. I can't say i'm terribly eager to attempt contact. So, as a member of the enlightened... could you tell me what *is* God's side of the argument? I'm earnestly curious. The bible depicts him as a spiteful prick who does nothing but deal out eternal punishments to those who displease him and enforce harsh, grueling trials upon the faithful to further prove their loyalty. I have no love for the guy.
As for the world... I consider anywhere I currently reside to be my home. By the by... didn't God create the world? Did the world disown God or something? Your statements are very confusing.
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Xilonen



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MellowFish wrote:
I am such a bad christian: I see your avatar and a bubble of hate comes to the front. But since there is a person loved by god behind the avatar, I will try to contain myself


pardon me, but this seems a bit hypocritical coming from the avatar of huey freeman who is a self-proclaimed very liberal anti-establishment religion-hater. not to mention one of your first declarations was that you appreciate Tat's religious commentary, much of which is done through the devil and lil evil.
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 755
Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inept Villain wrote:
Don't knock the devil, man. He's one of my favorite fictional characters. Lil' Evil too. More to the point... the avatar is hilarious. I suspect that you may be a robot because you didn't laugh at it.

That's an interesting (and disturbing) basis for spiritual communication. So i'll never know the joys of religious fervor unless my life plummets into absolute abyssmal shit. I can't say i'm terribly eager to attempt contact. So, as a member of the enlightened... could you tell me what *is* God's side of the argument? I'm earnestly curious. The bible depicts him as a spiteful prick who does nothing but deal out eternal punishments to those who displease him and enforce harsh, grueling trials upon the faithful to further prove their loyalty. I have no love for the guy.
As for the world... I consider anywhere I currently reside to be my home. By the by... didn't God create the world? Did the world disown God or something? You're statements are very confusing.


The picture is funny, it's the character of Lil evil that raises the heckles.

The people god destroyed in the bible had rejected him, and so were destined for hell anyway. He got rid of them to display his power and to remind his faithful not to turn away.

Not everyone has to hit rock bottom, it's just a common approach. I transitioned from a church kid who belived blindly to a young adult who is now studying the whole bible to see if I get the big picture. Which is that god loves me and knows what's best for me. It doesn't take to many screw ups to realize that we can't handle things on our own. the service which is encouraged in the bible is an outgrowth of that admitting that we cannot successfully run our own lives, and the adoption of his plan for us as our own.

If you think you are doing well on our own you are not being honest with yourself. I am saved from sin and I still screw up daily. Dont think you are any better than me!
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MellowFish



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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Location: The Train to Gloryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xilonen wrote:
MellowFish wrote:
I am such a bad christian: I see your avatar and a bubble of hate comes to the front. But since there is a person loved by god behind the avatar, I will try to contain myself


pardon me, but this seems a bit hypocritical coming from the avatar of huey freeman who is a self-proclaimed very liberal anti-establishment religion-hater. not to mention one of your first declarations was that you appreciate Tat's religious commentary, much of which is done through the devil and lil evil.


I undestand the need for lil devil as a tool for tat's comic, and as a counterpart to seymour, but they both bug the hell out of me because of their hipocracy.

And I like huey's openness and blunt attitude, even if I dont agree with what he says. I was trying to think of a good avatar from this site, but all I could come up with was crim, and he's not exactly the image I want people to associate with me.
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Xilonen



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that doesn't make the response to his avatar NOT hypocracy. it's just a cheap justification for it.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: except for peyote, that shit's godly Reply with quote

Quote:
in addition, smoking, drinking in excess, and doing drugs are all in violation of the first commandment: you are putting a substance in god's rightful place in your life, trusting to it for comfort instead of him.


When you consume recreational drugs, you're not replacing god with them. It's not a religious act.

You're consuming a substance which affects organic chemistry.
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