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Fhqwhgads



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 1337
Location: sfcaus

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bun bun wrote:
*platonic smooches*

Embarassed Very Happy
*runs*
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2439

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
And then again,
if you're going to be omnipotent you have to be more powerful than everything else so an omnipotent being can't be bound by logic, reasoning or common sense. That'd A. imply the existence of something more powerful than our all-powerful being. and B. introduce a new class of thing (illogical things) that can't be accomplished by an omnipotent being

A. I don't think it implies the existence of a more powerful being, it just lets you talk about an (even more) hypothetical being who could be more powerful... except Lewis' point is that we really still wouldn't be able to talk about that being, because the concepts involved don't lend themselves to conversation at all.

B. I don't see a problem with a class of illogical things that are impossible. It just makes no sense to task God with making something A and ~A at the same time. We can play semantic games with it, but having it as a stark reality would simply make no sense, and so God doing it also makes no sense.

Michael wrote:
Doing stuff that doesn't make sense is what being a god is all about. What kind of god would you be if you could only do stuff that could reasonably be accomplished? Just a man with eternal life. Booo-ring

A man with eternal life who can create universes. I'd have fun with that.

But everything I've said here is defending a point that Lewis didn't really make. When I said Lewis wasn't saying God is not omnipotent, I meant Lewis wasn't saying God was bound by logic. He was saying that conversation about him being unbound by logic is futile and meaningless. He may or not be so bound, and we can never know, and never make any real sense of it (because it is pretty much by definition insensible).
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Michael wrote:
And then again,
if you're going to be omnipotent you have to be more powerful than everything else so an omnipotent being can't be bound by logic, reasoning or common sense. That'd A. imply the existence of something more powerful than our all-powerful being. and B. introduce a new class of thing (illogical things) that can't be accomplished by an omnipotent being

A. I don't think it implies the existence of a more powerful being, it just lets you talk about an (even more) hypothetical being who could be more powerful... except Lewis' point is that we really still wouldn't be able to talk about that being, because the concepts involved don't lend themselves to conversation at all.

Not a being, a system, a set of rules. Here's a few different ways I can think of to look at it:
A1. God exists and is bound by logic, therefore logic exists seperatly from god and is thus more-powerful than our so-called omnipotent being.
A2. God exists and made logic, which means that god can break it if she/he likes
A3. Logic is a man-made thing, so if a god exists it wouldn't be bound by it (my view)
A4. Logic and god are man-made things so gods would definitely be bound by it (a pratchetarian view, I could live with this but it kinda takes the romance out)

Quote:
B. I don't see a problem with a class of illogical things that are impossible. It just makes no sense to task God with making something A and ~A at the same time. We can play semantic games with it, but having it as a stark reality would simply make no sense, and so God doing it also makes no sense.

Once again, why does it have to make sense? What else makes sense about a god? Isn't god usually the big guy in the sky we blame for everything that doesn't make sense? Like nice doggy A living and mean doggy B dying etc.
Also bear in mind that I don't actually believe so a non-workable definition of omnipotence doesn't bother me.

Quote:
Michael wrote:
Doing stuff that doesn't make sense is what being a god is all about. What kind of god would you be if you could only do stuff that could reasonably be accomplished? Just a man with eternal life. Booo-ring

A man with eternal life who can create universes. I'd have fun with that.

Now you're saying that if you know enough the idea of one being creating a universe is perfectly logical. I don't know about that


Sojobo wrote:
But everything I've said here is defending a point that Lewis didn't really make. When I said Lewis wasn't saying God is not omnipotent, I meant Lewis wasn't saying God was bound by logic. He was saying that conversation about him being unbound by logic is futile and meaningless. He may or not be so bound, and we can never know, and never make any real sense of it (because it is pretty much by definition insensible).

Okay... I like that, he was basically telling everyone to shut the fuck up. That's goood. I agree with lewis then, if not with you Wink
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A1 - A3 all seem fine to me. I can't see a reason for denying any of them. (A4 seems just a bit silly in a conversation that seems to have assumed God's existence to begin with)

A1: I think the phrase "more-powerful" is a bad one to describe not only something unconcious, but something intangible. But the important point is... so? Why shouldn't there be something more powerful than God?

A2: It wouldn't mean that, actually. God could well have bound Himself with logic. Really, doing anything binds oneself, since you have made it so that you have done that one thing and not another thing.

A3: Coo'

Michael wrote:
Now you're saying that if you know enough the idea of one being creating a universe is perfectly logical. I don't know about that

hmm?

Michael wrote:
Okay... I like that, he was basically telling everyone to shut the fuck up. That's goood. I agree with lewis then, if not with you Wink
Very Happy
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
A1: I think the phrase "more-powerful" is a bad one to describe not only something unconcious, but something intangible. But the important point is... so? Why shouldn't there be something more powerful than God?

'cause you can't be all-powerful is something else is stronger.

Well... you can actually if you're all-powerful Smile

I'm going to bed :p
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.

It's a cop out, sure. But it's also the truth. Try to explain the concept of low and high air pressure in a lifting form (airfoil) to someone from around 10,000 BC, and I bet you can come off as a god.


GOD IS FROM THE FUTURE?????? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Fhqwhgads



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: sfcaus

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And He drives a DeLorean. Shocked
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Agamemnon



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Studying somewhere. Or at least that's where I should be.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.

It's a cop out, sure. But it's also the truth. Try to explain the concept of low and high air pressure in a lifting form (airfoil) to someone from around 10,000 BC, and I bet you can come off as a god.


GOD IS FROM THE FUTURE?????? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


Actually, sure, why not. It's the argument dealing with destiny. Are we all destined to make the choices we make? What does that say about free will.

If God is from the future (for lack of a better way to explain it. He's actually outside of time) then he knows what choices we are going to make. It doesn't stop us from making our free will choices. Would you say that all the choices you made in the past are not free will knowing now what you know about them?
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Fhqwhgads



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 1337
Location: sfcaus

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. To watch someone make a choice is not to make them choose.
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.

It's a cop out, sure. But it's also the truth. Try to explain the concept of low and high air pressure in a lifting form (airfoil) to someone from around 10,000 BC, and I bet you can come off as a god.


GOD IS FROM THE FUTURE?????? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


more platonic smooches.
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PsycoMonkey



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 447

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


bun bun kisses everyone but me :confusion:

do i have something on my face Question
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PsycoMonkey wrote:
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


bun bun kisses everyone but me :confusion:

do i have something on my face Question


i do NOT. and no.
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Neraren



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fate is determined by free will, not the other way around.

That said, everything that happens is fated to happen. Given the same stimuli with the same variables, one individual will make the same decision every time, but just because you cant change what will happen doesnt mean you have no effect on it.
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PsycoMonkey



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because God knows everything that has happened prior to now, everything that is happening now, and everything that will happen forever more does not mean we lose free will. We make the choices on our own, he just knows ahead of time how we will choose and lets us choose the way ourselves. Take Columbine High School for instance, I highly doubt he desired all those people to die yet he knew it was going to happen some time in 1496 for example.

Free Will is moderated by the limitations of human abilities. Fate is only a fancy way of people to act like they are insignificant therefore giving them reasons to act sad and depressed like their lives are pointless.


wow...i dont know why i typed all that.i dont know what it means..just useless gibber jabber
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Lemontree



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3298

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably going to be poked to death by sporking for bringing this up... but I shall just the same.

I believe in Faith.. and I have my own theories on why we're here and where we go... But here's my issue with the most widely accepted viewpoint of God.. the one being that he's omnipotent and that we were made in his image.

Those two points come from oral traditions.. and MAN'S hand in transcribing said oral traditions. Before Jesus was born people just as strongly believed that Zeus was real. Zeus.. who whored himself out to many a lady, and had all sorts of other torrid dealings. My point is... it seems as though many god-like figures we as a species worship.. are created by us to help explain the greatness of the Universe. Rather than the other way around.

I do believe in Jesus though. I believe in him as a soul with higher understanding that stuck around earth to try and enlighten us.. just like Budhha.

And I do sort of believe in God.. but by God, I think of it as a word that applies to everything and anything. The energy and force behind the Universe with no great purpose or design.

</theological>
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