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Laughterheals



Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 141
Location: The OC

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my brain 'sploded on itself
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10657

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fhqwhgads wrote:
Eh, not so much a test of faith as fallout from the results of the Flood. I don't wanna bore everybody with details though unless somebody really wants to hear it (most don't ...and I'm lazy Smile ).

Well go ahead, pm or email me if you must, but I'd like to hear it... How do you know this stuff anyway?

Sojobo wrote:
There is the implicit question: "Why would you guess/imagine that He created time?"

I dunno, I always imagined that if a god were to create the world (i.e. the universe (i.e. a ten-dimensional point Wink ) that time would be one of the things you created... just assumed, that's all. Basically I figured that time was part of the 'everything' created. Having time exist seperatly from god would raise the question of where this time itself came from, and ruin the question-stopping abilities of said deity...

Quote:
The idea of time being created is also inherently problematic, since the entire concept of creating is temporal, so cannot exist outside of time.

Yes, although imagining something existing outside of time would require some sort of pseudo time in which to do it anyway so maybe you could have pseudo-time created normal time...
Come to think of it... That also raises (not begs, see? stupid nazis) the question of how this pseudo-time got there if god can only pseudo-create and not pseudo-pseudo create. So I guess the question-stopping ability is out of the window. Awww. I mooted my own point. Totally mooted. So moot.
Anyway, if we keep assuming that god can pseudo+1-create that stuff too we get an endless loop of psuedo-times but I think we can solve them by sticking god in a higher dimension than this inifinite loop... Well shit I don't know how that got there either.

Letting go of the restricition of having created everything inlcuding the time & space he/she lives in, how many dimensions does our deity need?

I'm thinking in dimensions now because
timmccloud wrote:
If you want to talk about time and outside of time, here is something to bend your brain into twisty bits:

"Want to break your brain? Click on this site, and then click 'imagining the ten dimensions'. If any physicists out there want to call bunk on this, feel free..."

AND THAT IS AWESOME!
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CopperTop



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South of Next Tuesday

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.


Understanding God and His motivations is not beyond human comprehension, as God is a completely human concept designed to aid the human mind in grasping what lies beyond this world. It has been perpetuated through folklore, tradition and fear. The Bible and it's similar works in other world religions are books of guidelines, parables and laws that were designed to keep the uneducated masses under control.

What does lie beyond this world? Most believe that we go on to commune with the angels in heaven. I firmly believe that we simply go back into the energy supply of the cosmos, to move to another plane of existance or return to this one when the time is right.


Last edited by CopperTop on Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fhqwhgads



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 1337
Location: sfcaus

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timmccloud wrote:
If you want to talk about time and outside of time, here is something to bend your brain into twisty bits:

"Want to break your brain? Click on this site, and then click 'imagining the ten dimensions'. If any physicists out there want to call bunk on this, feel free..."

Thanks to Aaron Williams of Nodwick.com for pointing this out. It's awesome. I think I'll post it on the physics thread too....

*goes all starry-eyed*

I... am... in... love. Shocked Very Happy Shocked Very Happy Shocked Very Happy I'ma have to watch that about 800 more times.

Michael wrote:
Well go ahead, pm or email me if you must, but I'd like to hear it... How do you know this stuff anyway?

Mmh, I have a collection of books on the subject. It fascinates me no end. There's a guy named Henry Morris who's written a lot of commentary on Genesis and specifically the Flood, and another guy named Chuck Missler who has some really interesting ideas on multi-dimensional theory and timelines as relates to Scripture. Lemme scrape together some brain cells and words and I'll drop you a line.
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10657

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CopperTop wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.


Understanding God and His motivations is not beyond human comprehension, as God is a completely human concept designed to aid the human mind in what lies beyond this world.


It is if you believe god created people, it isn't if you believe people created god. In the latter case omnipotence isn't an issue but since that's what was being discussed we implicitly assumed the former and so Ags was right, in context... I think



Fhqwhgads wrote:
Mmh, I have a collection of books on the subject. It fascinates me no end. There's a guy named Henry Morris who's written a lot of commentary on Genesis and specifically the Flood, and another guy named Chuck Missler who has some really interesting ideas on multi-dimensional theory and timelines as relates to Scripture. Lemme scrape together some brain cells and words and I'll drop you a line.

Please!
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thewaitersitsondown



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 2673
Location: The walrus was Paul

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timmccloud wrote:
If you want to talk about time and outside of time, here is something to bend your brain into twisty bits:

"Want to break your brain? Click on this site, and then click 'imagining the ten dimensions'. If any physicists out there want to call bunk on this, feel free..."

Thanks to Aaron Williams of Nodwick.com for pointing this out. It's awesome. I think I'll post it on the physics thread too....


HOLY FUCKING SHIT that was so fucking cool.
And actually made a lot of sense, I didn't find it took that much work to get my head around. Patterns are easy to grasp. It's when you're inside the pattern and you can't see it that it gets confusing.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael:

I agree with your answer to CopperTop, that it doesn't fit to declare that man made God, since we were resting the conversation on the assumption that God exists in some kind of Creator role, but I don't necessarily think that means Agamemnon was right.

Why should we have trouble understanding God and His motives? I'll go ahead and accept Him as bigger and smarter than us, but we were made in His image, after all.

If we, humans, were to raise another animal species to sentiency somehow, and explain to them why we did it, whether it be curiousity, love, loneliness, sheer reveling in our mastery of the world, whatever our motive was, we would expect them to understand, right? Sentiency is sentiency.

I'm not sure why we would assume a solid barrier in this other case - us trying to understand God.

Let us, for shits 'n giggles, guess that God Created us because He just plain likes Creating stuff. That seems like a plausible motive to me, and if it is accurate, then it is definitely an understandable one. Alternately, let us guess He Created us for His own glory's sake. He wants witnesses to how cool He is. That's an easy one to grasp, too.

We could also look at love, which is trickier, since we can sometimes run into that pesky Problem of Evil, but still, there's no reason to declare God's love any less sensible than any other human's love.

Anyway, I'm kinda running out of steam, and I think my point is relatively clear, so I'll stop. Looking forward to your thoughts. Smile
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10657

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Michael:

I agree with your answer to CopperTop, that it doesn't fit to declare that man made God, since we were resting the conversation on the assumption that God exists in some kind of Creator role, but I don't necessarily think that means Agamemnon was right.

Why should we have trouble understanding God and His motives? I'll go ahead and accept Him as bigger and smarter than us, but we were made in His image, after all.

If we, humans, were to raise another animal species to sentiency somehow, and explain to them why we did it, whether it be curiousity, love, loneliness, sheer reveling in our mastery of the world, whatever our motive was, we would expect them to understand, right? Sentiency is sentiency.

I'm not sure why we would assume a solid barrier in this other case - us trying to understand God.

Let us, for shits 'n giggles, guess that God Created us because He just plain likes Creating stuff. That seems like a plausible motive to me, and if it is accurate, then it is definitely an understandable one. Alternately, let us guess He Created us for His own glory's sake. He wants witnesses to how cool He is. That's an easy one to grasp, too.

We could also look at love, which is trickier, since we can sometimes run into that pesky Problem of Evil, but still, there's no reason to declare God's love any less sensible than any other human's love.

Anyway, I'm kinda running out of steam, and I think my point is relatively clear, so I'll stop. Looking forward to your thoughts. Smile


Well... I think us not understanding god is part of the whole belief system, it creates a space for god by blaming him for all we don't understand.
But you are absolutely right that (ulterior motives aside) there's no real reason why we should assume this. There's been quite a lot of assumptions made along the way so maybe we should specify them a bit better...
I for one have been thinking all along of a single all-powerful deity who created everything (including time) purposefully and in a manner we don't comprehend but he (he?) does.
Don't ask me why. That's just the image that first came up in my mind. Well, I've only gone and specified it now but that's probably the image I had in my mind. Oh, and all-powerful means he also knows everything and is more intelligent than us (since he clearly has the ability to do so).
Other interpretations could be much more fun I guess, multiple deities with human intelligence (albeit with a little more knowledge) who created us by accident and have no idea how they did it.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
I for one have been thinking all along of a single all-powerful deity who created everything (including time) purposefully and in a manner we don't comprehend but he (he?) does.
Don't ask me why. That's just the image that first came up in my mind. Well, I've only gone and specified it now but that's probably the image I had in my mind. Oh, and all-powerful means he also knows everything and is more intelligent than us (since he clearly has the ability to do so).

The picture you draw is the image of God that first springs to mind for me, too. I expect it is the vastly predominant Christian (and Jewish and Muslim) description of God, though I imagine a lot of people leave out the creating time bit for simplicity's sake.

My questioning parts of the image, like the omnipotence, has really been for three reasons.

The first is a simple genuine curiousity as to when these concepts entered into the Christian picture of God. Who originated or popularized these ideas? Clement? Tertullian? Augustine? Surely it was well before Aquinas? Like if I asked about Jesus being of the same essence as God, someone would point me to the Nicean council reaction against Arianism. That sort of thing. Smile

The second is that I think these things are just fascinating to discuss. I cannot understand why so many people let sheer momentum define God for them instead of investigating their beliefs for themselves. Is it impossible to understand God's motives? I would hope that question would be very important to people placing their trust in Him.

The third reason is a kind of reaction against the kind of arguments that started this conversation on page two. They always begin with God being omnipotent and omniscient, and normally omnipresent and omnibenevolent as well. That's such a small part of the conversation to focus on! How many times do we need to ask if God can microwave a burrito so hot even He can't eat it? What happens if I answer with a "no"? Is someone going to complain that it means He's not omnipotent? Fine. I want to run with that. What direction can we go after such an allowance is made?

Well, jumping into metaconversation like this, especially when I can't help sounding a touch preachy, will no doubt kill off what little interest is remaining in this thread. *shrugs* I guess maybe I'll just have to learn to be sneakier in my approach next time. Smile
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10657

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
My questioning parts of the image, like the omnipotence, has really been for three reasons.

The first is a simple genuine curiousity as to when these concepts entered into the Christian picture of God. Who originated or popularized these ideas? Clement? Tertullian? Augustine? Surely it was well before Aquinas? Like if I asked about Jesus being of the same essence as God, someone would point me to the Nicean council reaction against Arianism. That sort of thing. Smile

I hope you find your answer somewhere, but I'm completely clueless. I can never remember who said what and when. Good luck!

and then Sojobo wrote:
The second is that I think these things are just fascinating to discuss. I cannot understand why so many people let sheer momentum define God for them instead of investigating their beliefs for themselves. Is it impossible to understand God's motives? I would hope that question would be very important to people placing their trust in Him.

Most people just go along with it, I think. They usually do. The people with a higher-than-average (higher-than-modal really) interest in religion are usually seeking peace of mind and a way to attach meaning to random but terrible events. They want a god who's seen everything, been everywhere and knows it all works out for the good. What comfort is a god who shrugs helplessly and says 'hell if I know'? I think people don't question their god because their god is who they turn to for answers. Opium for the masses and all that.

Sojobo also wrote:
The third reason is a kind of reaction against the kind of arguments that started this conversation on page two. They always begin with God being omnipotent and omniscient, and normally omnipresent and omnibenevolent as well. That's such a small part of the conversation to focus on! How many times do we need to ask if God can microwave a burrito so hot even He can't eat it? What happens if I answer with a "no"? Is someone going to complain that it means He's not omnipotent? Fine. I want to run with that. What direction can we go after such an allowance is made?

What gets me is the arrogance with which people claim that something can't exist because we can't understand it. Zeno's paradoxes never stopped anyone from believing in our ability to cross short spaces.
I don't mind people denying there is a god, but for the right reasons. How often have you thought something through only to find you forgot some crucial bit which made your whole theory meaningless? Like that there is no 7:34 bus on sundays.
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CopperTop



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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Location: South of Next Tuesday

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
CopperTop wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Trying to understand God and His thoughts and motivations is beyond our puny human comprehensions.


Understanding God and His motivations is not beyond human comprehension, as God is a completely human concept designed to aid the human mind in grasping what lies beyond this world.


It is if you believe god created people, it isn't if you believe people created god. In the latter case omnipotence isn't an issue but since that's what was being discussed we implicitly assumed the former and so Ags was right, in context... I think


Let us look at how God is defined through the ages - the giver of laws, the definer of righteousness, all powerful, ever present, all knowing. Sounds like the ultimate father figure - just what a patriarchial society or church would want to promote, especially when encountering other cultures that worship Mother Earth.

The concept of an all-knowing being that created the universe aided in explaining what lay beyond this world to those that asked such questions. It also aided in controlling an ancient populace by passing down laws or explaining disasters and deaths as "The Will of God", for He has all the power those that believe in Him will give.

God is as omnipotent as we want Him to be - and so are we.
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Spanky



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are of the Judeo-Christian slave morality, unable to vent our aggressions externally so we do so internally. The epitome of this mental masochism is God, an entity of perfection and power that can never be equaled by man. The ultimate torture device: an antithesis of our innate, animal instincts! Guilt before God!

/end Nietzschean rant
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bun bun
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a couple of things before i disappear back into the woodwork (only to pop out again at threads like, "There's a Monkey on your Shirt.")

1. I would be more inclined to believe in an imperfect, long-lived (but not immortal, cause the universe is gonna end sometime, and had a begninning), kinda moody God, or better yet, a lot of them quarreling with each other. I think the Greeks had a good idea going.

2. I sometimes lean towards the Terry Pratchett theology: Gods created by belief.

3. Something I would like to believe, although I don't think it fits with reality, because reality is too cruel, is the "Chronicles of Narnia", a.k.a. God is right here and you see him once in a while, everything works out for the best, and he's really noble, beautiful and awe-inspiring (and yet cuddly!) idea. And if anyone says that Aslan is similar to the Christian ideology, I will punch them in the mouth. Yes, C.S. Lewis was basing it on Christianity. But no, what he ended up with was NOT Christianity. If you want to fight me on this, I'm happy to do that. *looks belligerent*

4. BUT. When I really think about it, and I don't feel the need for a theological pillow or crutch, when I bite the bullet and realise that my problems are gonna stick around, and I'm just going to have to deal with them emotionally, then I think to myself:

I prefer to think that instead of being a defunct version of some higher being, we have clawed our way, tooth and nail, kicking and screaming, out of the muck and mire that is mindless reproduction and unconscious action.

And ended up with such things as literature and Mozart, to boot. I think it's something to be prouder of when you make a difficult climb up (Evolution) than when you fall from grace (Duh, Creationism).
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John Mytton



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 607

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CopperTop wrote:
God is as omnipotent as we want Him to be - and so are we.

The second half of this statement is profoundly untrue.
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timmccloud



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 633
Location: Marshall, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bun bun wrote:
2. I sometimes lean towards the Terry Pratchett theology: Gods created by belief.


I love Terry Pratchett, and part of that is because I believe that he hits some very uncommon, but intelligent observations like that one. And I do tend to agree with the concept of gods are created by beliefs.

Glad all of you enjoyed the 10 dimensions thing. I loved it, and it's very undestandable and well expressed.
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