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July 28, 2017: Paycheck 4
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...now i want to hear the rest of that song.
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Miracle_Drakon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
...now i want to hear the rest of that song.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt_JvyF93Yg - original, with english subs,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peve72TN_rg - english cover.
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Argus



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enchantedsleeper wrote:
Also, I gotta say, I think Brazil won this one xD Touché, Michel.

Er... hello... is this thing on? *taps microphone*

Oh! Hi there! New user here! Been quietly stalking these forums for a while. Hi everyone. Smile

Anyway, I saw you talking politics, and just had to join in on this. The reason for this is because I am from... *takes a deep breath*

...Russia.

So. Let's see.
- We have 4 parties in the parliament. But since 2011 they are so alike, they are basically voting on every new law almost unanimously. Liberal-democratic party? Communist party? Like, what's the difference between THEM if they vote for all the same laws? There's also a bunch of opposition parties, but no one cares about THOSE.
- Our current president was made, well, a president the 3rd time based on a language technicality: "Oh, the constitution says you can't be elected more than 2 times in a row, so it's OK". The funny thing? Even 10 years ago people knew it would happen. They were mostly joking about it back then.
- There's corruption. If funds are assigned somewhere by the government, there will be embezzlement by the millions. Literally everyone knows about this, yet everyone is apathetic about it.

Oh, and basically, the whole political system is a sort of mafia, meant for enrichment of its members, while basically every on of its members would go to jail for embezzlement if they ever lost power. Which is why their main and ONLY political goal is to not lose it. Literally. Everything that happens inside the country, everything in its international politics only has the goal of leaving the same people in power, by keeping people's attention away from the more mundane problems inside the country, and by playing on how information is presented and on the people's patriotic feelings, which works, based on what I will say next.

The reason for all of the above? This:
Quote:
I think it's reasonable to not like a hostile country that's colluding with our current president to cripple our country.

That's exactly the kind of mentality that has been pushed in Russia against America for the past 15 years at least. Everything was presented kinda like this:
- America invades Iraq? The talk about terrorism and chemical weapons is an excuse to get to the oil.
- America opens military bases in our neighbouring countries? They're waiting for an opportunity to attack.
- America makes a comment about our elections? They want to control it.
- A government gets overthrown somewhere? America sponsored the coup.
- There are opposition parties in our country? And they think Russia should be nothing but allies with Europe and America? America pays them, and they want to ruin our country.

And all of this is presented with enough information to be believable.
You see where this leads. After all these years, a lot of people are so obsessed with this, they only talk about "global politics", don't care what happens in the country itself, and think that even if the government is corrupt to the core, anyone who replaces them would be even worse. All the while the country slowly has all the money sucked out of it by those in power. And to stay in power, they continue to use the international politics to justify them staying in power, showing people that without them, the country will not survive, and pushing a lot of conservative ideas into the mass mentality, to make it easier to be in control.

Oh, and right now, the people who call themselves either "patriots" or "opposition" have access to such different information, they might as well be living in different worlds.

And by the way, this system claims to be very stable. Can sure seem that way, too. It isn't.
Also, in the past couple of years the Internet has been making a greater impact on it then most people realize.

Anyway... whoo! Finished writing a wall of text. It's fun in here.

Quote:
"Let pedestrians run clumsily across the puddles."

That's not a very accurate translation, and it's a song from a cute children's cartoon.
I have no awareness of it being a popular birthday song (even though it technically IS about a birthday). Smile
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Argus, and welcome! Thanks for the outline. This kind of thing always makes we wonder what I'm so sure about that's complete nonsense from the outside...
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, it's always interesting to hear a different point of view.


and such a perfect example of Dictator 101: give the people a common enemy, and they will unite behind you. even if you have to make the enemy up.

the bush administration did this after 9/11, making iraq the enemy. of course, they then took the additional step of actually going to war with said enemy (gotta make sure cheney's halliburton buddies stayed fed), which has landed us in a whole mess of other problems. fortunately, bush doesn't seem to have had the energy to be Dictator for Life. much more sustainable to have an enemy you can just posture at.

our current leader seems to be trying to kill two birds with one stone, by trying to make the press the enemy, but they seem to be drawing more blood than he expected.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yes, it's always interesting to hear a different point of view.


and such a perfect example of Dictator 101: give the people a common enemy, and they will unite behind you. even if you have to make the enemy up.

the bush administration did this after 9/11, making iraq the enemy. of course, they then took the additional step of actually going to war with said enemy (gotta make sure cheney's halliburton buddies stayed fed), which has landed us in a whole mess of other problems. fortunately, bush doesn't seem to have had the energy to be Dictator for Life. much more sustainable to have an enemy you can just posture at.

our current leader seems to be trying to kill two birds with one stone, by trying to make the press the enemy, but they seem to be drawing more blood than he expected.

Making the free press your enemy always seems like terrible idea, but it's Dictatorship 101 for a reason. It brings two solutions at once: The creation of an enemy that the followers can get a strong feeling of patriotism against, and turning any shape of news that contradict your narrative into "opposing propaganda" to be ignored. The Kirchners in Argentina implemented this tactic to great effect during their 12 long, long years. I think it requires a level of cleverness and just the right amount of subtlety that Trump could probably not manage, though.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, he's sold his hard-core base on it, but then they've believed it since palin broke out her "lame-stream media" line. trump, on the other hand, keeps providing those who haven't drunk the kool-aid with all sorts of evidence of just how right the press is, so his 'fake news' isn't winning any more converts.

and for all his wanting to be a tough guy, i doubt he has the connections to go putin's way, and just kill them off. much as he might like to.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I called Russia hostile because right now they're actively and aggressively meddling with our state of affairs. They were (and still are) trying to destabilize the west by backing right-wing extremists like Le Pen (thankfully she wasn't elected). That makes them hostile.
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GreekPlayer64



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh i.. am kind of late on this..

Eyy greek politics suck just as much?

We basically went a few decades back in progress of paying our debt, because we voted for the left, because the other side was "corrupted".

Atleast the other side was somewhat doing its job.
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Argus



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh! First commentary about the actual comic here! Very Happy

Slick, if you're embarrassed, just type "sorry, wrong video" and send the one you intended - because seriously, the Dragon-Samtron battle will top the shame just fine.

Also, yet another priceless last-panel expression... Laughing Wake-up call. o_o

Aaand back to politics. Smile

GreekPlayer64 wrote:
We basically went a few decades back in progress of paying our debt, because we voted for the left, because the other side was "corrupted".

Atleast the other side was somewhat doing its job.

Tell me about it - our current "side" is corrupt to the core, and one of the major reasons it stays in power is because it claims it's "at least doing its job". And quite a lot of people believe this, claiming that literally no other "side" would even consider doing its job.

Aaand another major reason:
Nobody Important wrote:
I called Russia hostile because right now they're actively and aggressively meddling with our state of affairs.

I've basically said this already, but just to summarize: you'll get the exact same attitude from an average Russian, just with the country names flipped, such attitude was used to basically force the opposition out of the politics, and in the long run it's harmful for the whole country.
While most of such accusations have at least some basis in reality, when the people embrace them it just lets some politicians get away with anything. Because the state of cold war is, like, the easiest way for a government to keep its people in check.

While I'm at it, just as a side note: the whole current investigation into "Russian connections" in American politics, sadly, serves as an excellent fuel for the Russian government's own propaganda. Like, in America, politicians get to testify in court because a couple of years ago they had coffee with someone from Russia? Was much simpler here - talk about it a bit in front of cameras, show a couple of journalist investigations on TV, and BOOM! The whole opposition is now discredited, and a lot of people start seeing them as American lackeys. The existence of various international funds for "democracy" or "free speech" didn't help - it just served to back the credibility of the accusations.

Oh, and yeah, a lot of high-ranking people in the current Russian government are former KGB. Information war and behind-the-scenes meddling is, like, the one thing they should be good at. It surely shows inside the country itself. Luckily, it's still very much dependant on it's image of democracy and free speech and such. With all the conservative (and much worse) ideas tossed around, the government still depends on most people seeing it as very democratic, and at least tries to make it look like its hands are clean.

PS: Evidently, I like providing insider info. Cool

Draculaura wrote:
do you know that i've had to read the word POOTIE not followed by TANG like 5 times in the last week?

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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference is that we didn't interfere with their elections, while they did ours. We've been gathering more and more evidence that Trump and his cronies are in bed with Putin. Of course we're gonna treat them with suspicion and contempt when they try to infiltrate our politics. We as americans have the right to be angry about that. It's not our fault they're making propaganda as a response to our justified outrage. I'm not saying that Russia as a whole is bad but their government is noticeably more corrupt than ours.

Last edited by Nobody Important on Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argus wrote:
While I'm at it, just as a side note: the whole current investigation into "Russian connections" in American politics, sadly, serves as an excellent fuel for the Russian government's own propaganda.

That's no reason not to investigate the Russian connections in American politics. Why the scare quotes?
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Argus



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why the scare quotes?

Didn't mean them as such - just quoting the term I've read from American news, really.

Guys, I'm not trying to justify anything here or say there should be no investigations. As someone with pretty liberal views (which in modern-day Russia means pretty much disagreeing with anything the government does whatsoever, as the only things it ever does only have the goal of leaving the same people in power, nothing else), I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing when its international credibility gets blown, as it means there's a chance it will get changed faster (it can only turn such things to its benefit for so long - there's a limit to it).

The only thing I'm saying - that's exactly what's been happening here. The idea that "the West" tries to manipulate our politics is one of the things that brought the country to the state it is now. It's just when I read this things, I see almost word-to-word recap of what was used to discredit the Russian opposition. "Interfering with our elections" - been used, too. Nobody Important, I see your point - it's just when you go to a Russian forum and see what any "patriot" writes, it would be almost the exact same thing word-to-word, just with countries and names flipped. And it's the result of years of favouring a certain perspective in viewing information.

Why am I saying this? Well, I dunno. Maybe I'm trying to say something like "be mindful that the current state of affairs wouldn't start to get used by someone just to manipulate the public." You know, if that's needed. Perhaps your people are mindful enough of their well-being, and your government system works well enough to prevent that from happening.

I just want to share what the situation is here, really. Provide some perspective.
Because really, I just hate it when common people start to treat each other based on the political mess. I've seen that a lot.
That's not what's happening here. And I just want to do my part in making sure it stays that way. Wink

PS: Well, here's maybe another point that compelled me to write it. Fun fact: in Russia, it's the opposition that thinks there's no way Putin could control Trump. Most of the opposition is of the opinion that there's nothing Putin could offer him, and even if he did, Trump would eventually back away from it due to the pressure of American government system. It's also the opinion of pretty much everyone here, on both sides, that so far, the current Russian government has gotten nothing but grief after Trump's election (with the government making dramatic faces and saying "But our hopes were so high! What a betrayal!", and the opposition smiling knowingly and saying "Told ya.")

I don't know how it really is - but that's just the opinion of the opposition here.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I am always on the lookout for another perspective. And what you said about "the other side" using the same terms? Breitbart talks about "leftists" the same way as "leftists" talk about alt-right. Same terminology, same painting the other as evil, same same same. It's scary.

Well, with one exception: Breitbart is way more ad hominem, especially when it comes to women and/or people of colour. We can safely discard what X said because X is ugly. You see that on the left side too, of course (especially when it comes to women), but it's somewhat less par for the course.

I wish I could be sure of my convictions. But I know it's a good thing that I can't.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foo. we americans don't meddle in elections - we get in there and overthrow governments we don't like _directly_ Razz

it's true that every government tries to arrange the rest of the world the way they like it, from things like radio programs they send out all the way up to spycraft and its associated deviousness. one end is considered transparent and acceptable (you know who is making the broadcasts, and what their agenda is); the other end is heinous (all the secret stuff and yeah i guess actually assassinating people sorry CIA), with all shades of grey in between. russia got caught doing something in secret (hacking email servers) and less-than-transparent (the fake news stories that were put out that seemed to be from reputable, non-russian sources), and that shades pretty strongly towards heinous. so we are pissed; probably anyone else would be too.

it's interesting, though, that putin allies have picked up on the same thing as trump allies: "but they were just _talking_ to the russians! everyone in congress has talked to russians, why aren't we investigating them? what about all the times hillary talked to the russians?!" (well, putin allies may not worry about the last).

the thing is, talking to russians is not bad. hiding the fact that you talked to russians and then LYING about it, that's bad. hillary talked to the russians any number of times when she was secretary of state, and it wasn't a problem because a) it was her job and b) the president and the intelligence agencies, at least, knew she was doing it. she wasn't doing it, and then telling everyone that she didn't even know any russians so how could she be talking to them?

sorry, ran out to a meeting in the middle of writing this so may or may not have ended on the same point i was trying to make in the beginning.
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