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December 5, 2017: MMXVII 28
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KALXAK



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Rogue

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
o....kay, so where are do all the issues with trans people come in?


It's not radfems that have an issue with transpeople. It's transactivists that have an issue with us. Because we know women aren't inherently "feminine". We are female human beings, that's why we are called women. If you define women by anything else, you'll probably use a sexist and false definition. Women and men are called so because we are humans with reproductive biological differences that are too conspicuous you can't just ignore it. This interfere even in our SEXuality, hence why transactivism has been called homophobic by a whole lot of people from the LGBT community. Jfc, none of us would be here if our parents haven't had sexual intercouse and our mom hadn't give birth to us! The problem isn't categorizing something relevant, it's the hierarchy. It's deeming one sex better and the master of the other. It's treating the other as less human! Hierarchy between the sexes, that's why we have misogyny, sexism, this whole shitty worldwild millenia-old patriarchy. Gender, aka sex roles and stereotypes, just make things worse for other groups of people, like homossexuals and bisexuals, intersex people, and yes, trans people, that are just gnc people. Gender non-conforming. Ain't nothing wrong with their bodies or mind, but society get them sick because they don't conform gender, to the roles and stereotypes expected of them just from being born female or male. That's the problem. A problem for them, for LGBT as a whole, for every women, and even for men enjoying the benefits of patriarchy, cause our culture raise men to be psychos and hateful. And is successful with too many of them.
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Last edited by KALXAK on Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have no idea what radfems or transactivists have issues with; i'm not discussing things with them on this forum. i'm discussing things with you, and you say things like:
Quote:
'm not the one agreeing with their delusions caused by dysphoria
which seems very much like you have an issue with trans people. and you just dismissed Taemon because you figure if people object to categorizing people by sex they are equivalent to flat-earth believers, because hey - medical doctors identify people by sex!

and then you go on to essentially say it all comes down to reproductive biological differences "that are so conspicuous {we} just can't ignore it". that's sort of pure patriarchy there, the idea that the only important thing about a woman is that she make babies. and trans women don't count because they can't make babies.

so forget what other people think. what do _you_ think about trans people? and why? where are you putting them in this hierarchy?
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KALXAK



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're mixing some things and ignoring others. But yes if you're born a male human being, it's deluded of you to think you're a woman, cause women are female human beings. And I'll repeat myself again: what's patriarcal it's not the categorization, it's the hierarchy. Sorry, it's not as simple to understand as we all wish, but it's not too complicated either. What's a woman and a man? Respectively the female and male human beings. None is better than the other and our important differences are so minimum, it's stupid to build a hierarchy around it. But it's done, and that's why there's sexism, this ideia that if you don't follow a cultural/historical role or stereotype built around being a man or a woman, you aren't one. This idea that being a woman is worse than being a man. That's horrible, limiting and that's why we have feminism, to let people know that who you are isn't defined by your sex.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse wrote:
the idea that the only important thing about a woman is that she make babies. and trans women don't count because they can't make babies.


False claim. It's the only important thing that makes them different from males is that they can bear children. You might even say it's what makes them special in comparison.

KALXAK wrote:
sexism, this ideia that if you don't follow a cultural/historical role or stereotype built around being a man or a woman, you aren't one.


I'd say that's the real answer for the "why not support trans" question: because accepting that a male following female-attributed "womanly" behavior patterns (or a female following "manly" behavior patterns) making them be seen as female/male respectively is basically the acceptance of patriarchal gender roles and the sexist rigid gender binary.

AKA if you are a male but you "act like a woman" and you're seen as a woman, then you verify the existence of "woman behavior". Gender roles. Stereotypes. Sexism.
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Pedro_Martini



Joined: 24 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KALXAK wrote:
But yes if you're born a male human being, it's deluded of you to think you're a woman, cause women are female human beings.

So, for you, is encouraging a trans woman to pursue an identity of being a woman through drugs and surgery akin to encouraging a schizophrenic person's delusions, telling them and acting as though they're real?

Say all gender roles and restrictions didn't exist, do you believe that we should invest in a "cure" for gender dysphoria that doesn't involve changing the person's medical classifications or our definitions of those classifications? How would that cure differ from the supposed "cures" for homosexuality (that are basically torture)? Or are you saying gender dysphoria wouldn't exist without gender roles?
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KALXAK



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Rogue

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Mouse wrote:
the idea that the only important thing about a woman is that she make babies. and trans women don't count because they can't make babies.


False claim. It's the only important thing that makes them different from males is that they can bear children. You might even say it's what makes them special in comparison.

KALXAK wrote:
sexism, this ideia that if you don't follow a cultural/historical role or stereotype built around being a man or a woman, you aren't one.


I'd say that's the real answer for the "why not support trans" question: because accepting that a male following female-attributed "womanly" behavior patterns (or a female following "manly" behavior patterns) making them be seen as female/male respectively is basically the acceptance of patriarchal gender roles and the sexist rigid gender binary.

AKA if you are a male but you "act like a woman" and you're seen as a woman, then you verify the existence of "woman behavior". Gender roles. Stereotypes. Sexism.


Wow, thanks!
I just disagree with the "why not support trans". Those people suffer with sexism and homophobia, you could call it transphobia. They do need a political platform to claim rights and protection from violence. But the way they are doing it, nowadays, is not doing good to trans people and women, because it's supporting delusions, throwing women's rights and feminism under the bus and promoting homophobic ideas, like that "if you don't date trans women you can't call yourself a lesbian" spiel I've heard too many times on the internet.
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KALXAK



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Rogue

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedro_Martini wrote:
KALXAK wrote:
But yes if you're born a male human being, it's deluded of you to think you're a woman, cause women are female human beings.

So, for you, is encouraging a trans woman to pursue an identity of being a woman through drugs and surgery akin to encouraging a schizophrenic person's delusions, telling them and acting as though they're real?


I would say yes. But I don't think gender dysphoria - or whatever caused the person to think they belong to the opposite sex, or even that their "gender" is not man or woman - is comparable to schizophrenia. I do think gender dysphoria is similar to anorexia. And I saw a couple of articles on the internet commenting on that. But I can't affirm that.

Pedro_Martini wrote:
Say all gender roles and restrictions didn't exist, do you believe that we should invest in a "cure" for gender dysphoria that doesn't involve changing the person's medical classifications or our definitions of those classifications? How would that cure differ from the supposed "cures" for homosexuality (that are basically torture)? Or are you saying dysphoria wouldn't exist without gender roles?


I believe, in the conditions you described, gender dysphoria wouldn't exist. At all. And also in the context you brought there wouldn't be homophobia either. HomoPHOBIA. But I don't know, that's just what me and many radfems agree with. But can we prove it? I don't know. We don't live in a society free of gender, or gender roles and restrictions, like you said. We can only hypothetize. But I believe it. I believe gender aka sex roles and stereotypes are the problem, not the sex we're born with. And gender dysphoria wouldn't exist in a patriarchy-free society. We should actually keep investigating what causes it though. We don't even know why human sexuality is the way it is. I know many LGBT people are against it, ang given the media and even some researchers bigots tendencies to interpret scientific results, I understand it. But we NEED research linked to respect for human rights. I think so.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh Dogen - where are you when we need you?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isn't he off being happy not drowning in toxic bile?
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1723

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I'll try to be polite.

KALXAK, you speak of a trans-movement. What is your impression regarding this movement? Nobody here supports the idea of strapping anyone to an operating room or forcing an hormone treatment. We don't even encourage it, particularly. We do believe, though, in people having authority over their body and identity.

Although I might not have the authority to tell, not having experienced it myself, being trans can't possibly be easy in any way. As I said, they are one on the most marginalized groups I can even think of. And I believe it's our responsibility as feminists and as allies, as we believe in gender equality, to give them a space in which they can feel accepted and respected for their choices, choices that are very important and personal to them.

As an addendum, there is such a thing as pre-op trans people, and they should also be supported in any way in which they need to express their femininity/masculinity.

We have had similar discussions in the past and trust me: Your opinions have the potential to emotionally hurt a lot of people. I won't convince you that theirs is a positive choice, but please try to understand their position and their feelings before you post.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some people dont get surgery. some people do. some people take hormones. some people dont. some people dont get dysphoria. some people do. every individual is different, with different wants and needs. who are effected differently by their experiences. with different opinions and choices. ultimately its each and every individuals choice, its their body, no ones making anyone do anything. everyone deserves to live their life comfortably as their true selves in whatever form that takes, whether they do or experience the above or whether they dont - without being defined by reproductive organs, without being treated cruelly for unjust reasons, and without being told who they should be in the face of them being true to themselves.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 to Leohan and Miss Magenta. Not to mention that not every trans person conforms to gender roles. There are tomboys and drag queens that are as cis as anybody could be. I myself have wondered if I was trans due to my absolute hatred of gender roles (among other more personal reasons). I found out that I'm probably closer to something like genderqueer or non-binary (maybe genderfluid?), not completely sure about which but I intend to find out. Hell sometimes I'm still not 100% sure if I'm cis or not. Only thing I am 100% sure about is my confusion about my identity.

Point is I see where you're coming from KALXAK and I agree with many of your ideas but I don't think that trans people are delusional nor that (most) trans activism is toxic or cult-like. At least not much more than any other minority rights movement. I do think that less people would identify as trans (or at least transition) if we got rid of toxic gender roles. However we don't really know because realistically that's not gonna happen in a long time and we don't know enough about trans people to make a solid conclusion about their future.

So anyway, back to the crabs.

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enchantedsleeper



Joined: 15 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at this li'l guy


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Chronometry



Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we still posting crabs?


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HKVeteran



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a crab!!



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