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December 31, 2017: MMXVII 54
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 1907
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fine if the rules are stupid, but they should be consequent. Someone once laughed at me because I like Lord of the Rings but was harping on some movie for being illogical (sound in space, no doubt). But LotR sticks to its own rules.

Well, basically what Onimaru said. Although in this case it didn't bother me so much but hey, we all have our pet rages :-)
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Imry



Joined: 16 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:
Deus Ex Machina is a GREAT story telling technique, IF when it happens it FEELS like something amazing no one expected, no one saw it coming.... But if you go back, and you read or watch the show again, you can identify hints, little key points that set things up so you can TELL that all along the Author had this in mind, then you know he's been guiding AND deceiving you by distracting you from these hints until the big reveal.

Deus Ex Machina is a TERRIBLE Story telling technique, IF when it's used it comes completely out of nowhere with absolutely no build-up or explanation other than, "Yea... Because I SAY so! My story, so that's what happens...." Even for a daily serialized Comic, that is a Bullshit, Asspull technique and it's LAZY goddamned writing. It's especially egregious when later parts of the story go back to retcon the Bullshit as if it had always been there. Something Tat is infamous for doing.

I write as a hobby, I struggle to maintain and keep a narrative and solid story structure even HALF as good as Tat does MOST of the time on a goddamned daily basis. So yes, I get UPSET when I see him resort to LAZY storytelling tactics, and I come here to vent and chat about it. Not like I'm going to drop the comic, not like I'm out here attacking anyone who LIKED the comic, just when someone asked me what my problem was with it, I took the time to explain in detail. Smile
This so much.

After the Dec24 strip, I was expecting something like:

Pimpbot: "Pathetic. Did you expect that to do anything?"
Fembots: "Well no, but it provided a nice distraction while (drat I forgot her name) hacks into your bot through a conveniently-located panel on your foot."
Pimpbot: "Oh shiDOWN WITH THE PATRIARCHY!!!"

That would've felt better. We've seen (I'm super sorry for forgetting her name) do "Hollywood hacking" before so she's definitely capable to doing stuff like this. It uses a lot of previously-established canon to resolve the situation, and it can even end with them commanding PimpBot to fly off into the sky and self-destruct after they're done with him in order to get the sparkly fireworks ending. It flows a lot better than "btw suddenly we have missiles".
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleo, that's the Hacker Extraordinaire of the Sisterhood. And yes, that would have still been a bit Deus Ex Machina, but at the very least it would all have been from things established in the 'lore' as having been possible, so it would have worked, again a bit better if there had been some lead up and showing that there was some plan in place, but still.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clio, with an i, as in the greek muse, amazon, and oceanid

minor, harmless mistake but one that bugs me a little
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is like the 4th time you've had to correct me on that. Sorry I will endeavor to remember.

I remember the 'name' because I tend to read 'aloud' in my head.... If that makes sense to anybody. So when I recall it from Memory I think Cleo as in Cleopatra, since that was her 'nickname' in Clone High.
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OlympianSoul



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
clio, with an i, as in the greek muse, amazon, and oceanid

minor, harmless mistake but one that bugs me a little


You know, if the members of the sister hood are suppose to be like the amazons, it might be interesting to have them be related to the Greek god Ares.

He was the father of the original Amazons, and contrary to popular interpretations, he would probably be supportive of his ideas.

Also, I find the idea of Xanthe learning to drive by using a chariot drawn by fire breathing war horses oddly amusing.
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Homeslice



Joined: 16 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:
[snip] ... Not like I'm going to drop the comic, not like I'm out here attacking anyone who LIKED the comic, just when someone asked me what my problem was with it, I took the time to explain in detail. Smile

That's fair, I'll concede that point.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OlympianSoul wrote:
You know, if the members of the sister hood are suppose to be like the amazons, it might be interesting to have them be related to the Greek god Ares.


well... its not clear whether theyre meant to be the amazons or the oceanids.

since so far all named members of the sisterhood are given names that are also given to both an amazon and an oceanid.
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OlympianSoul



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
OlympianSoul wrote:
You know, if the members of the sister hood are suppose to be like the amazons, it might be interesting to have them be related to the Greek god Ares.


well... its not clear whether theyre meant to be the amazons or the oceanids.

since so far all named members of the sisterhood are given names that are also given to both an amazon and an oceanid.


I'd say Amazons. They would go better (or at least their portrayal in modern media and Hollywood would) with the theme of the comic.

Either way, it would be cool to see Ares appear... ooh or Hades, *gasp* or Hermes, he had three daughters with Hecate, that might be a cool story line.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random Wanderer wrote:
Please note that the fembot launching the missile is the one who is capable of using bizarre technomagic to accomplish inexplicable things. Given that it is already established that her influence can result in violations of the laws of physics, I don't think this particular event requires any more of an explanation than "it was magic."


exactly.

look again at panel 2 - that's not the standard flame coming out of that rocket, that's a ....glow. an eerie, magical glow. and look at the way she is holding her arms - that looks like part of a spell, directing the rocket to lift off.

so yes, it's all done by magic. a magic rocket, which can magically change speed and direction, and provide a magically beautiful fireworks display at just the right altitude.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that bot acquired that ability during the John Frog-arch, when she got hurt and got healed by Nana. So it's magic, but it's magic with roots in the story. I mean, the magic didn't suddenly appear by magic.
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Onimaru



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the ONLY use that 'Magic Techno Hand' has displayed before has been to interact with devices and have them overload or react in a way that while unlikely is still within their respective abilities and/or programming. Terminals overloading or blowing up, that kind of thing. Never once has her power displayed the ability to make the device DO something it's not able to do within it's capabilities as a machine previous to her touching it. (I'm actually going to confirm this just incase I'm not recalling something that did indeed happen.)

However, if everyone just wants to say, yea well, NOW she can, sure go for it. Excusing Tat doing it will simply enable future comics to do the same Razz

Superman used SUPER VENTRILOQUISM to resolve this weeks crisis! A power never hinted at or shown before but he suddenly has because we never said he DIDN'T have that power did we?

How does his Super Powers reflect and create the ability in the first place? No idea! But it works because we say so!

Is Super Ventriloquism stupid as fuck and shouldn't have even been considered? Probably! But who cares!

Was the Story Resolved with as minimal effort by the Author as possible? Fuck yes! BUT! We'll worm in some BS retcon to explain all this later on, don't you worry!
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats exactly why superman has as many powers as he currently does, and why dc still gives him another one every now and then. ive been reading the golden age, OG comics. hey, did you know superman started off with only like, one and a half power? super strength/invulnerability? everything else started developing after like 30 or so issues either as excuses to get him involved in the plot or for him to be able to solve whatever problem the plot revolved around. flying was the last of his powers to develop - he couldnt even fly for a good couple of years before suddenly, oh shit, there he goes! and now thats one of the most iconic things about him. he used to just cling to skyscrapers so he could eavesdrop on villains. its so funny.

anyways his "super ventriloquism" isnt technically a power, most of the time its mentioned that its a learned skill. so not really comparable to whatevers going on with fedora.

and, yeah, its annoying for powers to just suddenly appear when its plot convenient ... but a) its not necessarily a bad thing in the long run. and b) its not like hes established any hard rules about how fedoras powers work. he's barely written anything with her since it was first revealed she HAS them! yeah it feels kind of like an asspull that she should be able to control the rocket the way she did but

... like... she'd already done some weird and unrealistic stuff with what little we've been shown of her powers so far. no, not the instant hacking or disabling of devices. im talking about the way she's been able to turn organic material like rocks into technology? or completely heal wounds of fellow fembots? ... like, considering tat's used the comic itself to imply that he draws a bunch of strips in one go ahead of time, with no real plans, and he writes what he thinks would be cool or interesting... and with how little we know, and with how little has been shown, and we are still given a reasonable explanation as to how its possible .... with no hard-set rules... yea, its annoying, you have the right to be annoyed. but its not like, the worst thing hes ever done.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:
But the ONLY use that 'Magic Techno Hand' has displayed before has been to interact with devices and have them overload or react in a way that while unlikely is still within their respective abilities and/or programming. Terminals overloading or blowing up, that kind of thing. Never once has her power displayed the ability to make the device DO something it's not able to do within it's capabilities as a machine previous to her touching it.

Yeah, but I think Tat doesn't consider what that missile did as too far out of its capabilities. I mean, it totally is of course, but How Missiles Work is probably not within Tat's interests.
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Onimaru



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not entirely sure on this one so I'll not butt heads too much with you on it Miss M, but since Krypto the Super Dog can use it, I'm pretty sure that Super Ventriloquism is a Kryptonian power, it's stated as such on the Wiki. Also again IF I'm remembering it's FIRST appearance correctly it seemed like an asspull out of left field that again they tried to explain away a how and why at a later date. Although the more I think on it, it's possible it was the other way around, perhaps a 'learned ability' at first that they simply retconned into a Power, I will have to look it up Smile

As for Superman's ever growing list of powers over the years, but most predominantly the Golden Age where they were establishing him as a character, and comic book heroes in general were developing as an Art Form, him evolving makes sense, and the 'Rules' in general for developing a fantasy narrative in comic form hadn't been really built yet. So when that happened in the Golden, and even Silver Age most people just nodded their heads, because they were MOSTLY just fun stories for kids, sure adults read and enjoyed them too, but many comics in those days were just week to week serials with the same major characters and no major character or plot development for the most part. They tended to have the odd story arc and then come full circle back to status quo. But I'm digressing...

Yes the fact that she has shown the ability to make Rocks and other things she touches, some kind of 'Technorganic' does imply her powers are more than we've seen, and I'm interested to see where they'll go, but in reply to your points:

A) It's not necessarily a BAD thing, I agree, just it does rub me the wrong way, but that's just ME, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys it.

B) He has not, and while giving us a Rock Solid Canon Laundry List of what it CAN do would be ridiculous, SEEING important powers USED in such a way as to show us HOW they can be used before they need to be the plot breaking point of a major dramatic situation would be nice. To expand on this, WE know that Tat isn't going put a bunch of peoples lives at risk doing something stupid. But it's not like Fedora had DOZENS of Missiles to practice this little ability on, they found ONE. Thus in story, she did something MASSIVELY dangerous at the risk of hundreds of lives on the 'Assumption' it would work, because by our interpretation this is something SHE has NEVER done before, so her first time trying to actively control technology beyond it's capabilities with Technorganic Magic was a MISSILE into down town. But are WE going to hold her accountable for what she might have just done? No, we're going to just handwave it and say way to go, because the implications of her doing anything bad is counter to the message of the comic.

So yea, it's ANNOYING to see asspull without considering the implications and such, and no it's not the WORST thing he's ever done I just wish I could convince others that just accepting it will destroy any future drama that the story might hold.

And yes Taemon, Tat may not have studied Missile Mechanics as much as I have before writing the comic, so assuming with a bit of 'Magic' it all made perfect sense, it might have worked for him. This isn't the first time I've over analyzed the events of a 'dramatic moment' my rant at the time when the cop managed to pull a gun on Tange in less than a literal second was much more fury fueled. Razz
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