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The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11323

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote



What are TERFS and SWERFS?

Quote:
Trans-exclusionary radical feminism (TERF; also Trans women exclusionary feminism or TWEF[note 1]) is a subgroup of radical feminism characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny,[note 2] and hostility to the third wave of feminism. They believe that the only real women™ are those born with a vagina and XX chromosomes.[note 3] They wish to completely enforce the classic gender binary, supporting gender essentialism. The term was likely invented by Hoyden About Town writer Viv Smythe (aka TigTog) in 2008.[2][3]

The term "TERF" is not used by those in the group, who consider it a damnable slur and a term of abuse, and think of themselves as perfectly reasonable radical feminists[4] (and, indeed, the only thing that should be called "feminism"). They tend instead to use terms like "gender critical", which is for the same general public relations reason that white nationalists insistently present themselves as mere "race realists" and tankies try to rebrand Stalin apologetics as "anti-revisionism."

Sex worker-exclusionary radical feminism (also known as SWERF) is yet another offshoot of feminism, one that opposes women's participation in pornography and prostitution. The term was coined to match that of TERF, as their memberships overlap.[27] Their ideology also overlaps as both subgroups follow a prescriptive, normative approach to feminism; i.e., telling women what to do — TERFs with their gender, and SWERFs with their sexuality.

SWERFs criticize the objectification and exploitation of women within pornography and the sex industry, as well as the violence and abuse that sex workers frequently suffer.[note 12]

SWERFs typically go completely overboard and dump on sex-workers who chose their profession freely, even in places where it is completely legal and safe, claiming that the sex workers are nothing more than deluded victims (and co-perpetrators) of human trafficking. Much like white supremacists might insist that adoption agencies helping children from the third world find parents in the west are nothing more than deluded extinctionists. This dogmatic hostility to voluntary sex work is known as whorephobia.[11]


I would like to ask all you lovely fellow detail-collecting obsessives for some help on this particular subject! I have had the subject of Sinfest come up among various groups from leftbook to anfem because these groups are generally exactly one hundred percent done with trans exclusionist and sex worker exclusionist horseshit~ (hooray!) and Sinfest is continuing to crawl further and further into a regressively problematic hole that is causing more and more of these groups to have Additional Questions.

Previously, when the subject of Sinfest's potential terfiness and swerfiness came up, my answer was to say that "It's Complicated(tm)" and indicate that as far as I knew, the comic's otherwise generally overt and anvilicious political messages would dance around the subject of trans inclusion. As time has gone on, though, I don't think the comic has the same ambiguity involving Swerfiness.

It is now the primary question that comes up whenever an otherwise radfem positive sinfest comic comes up: "Hang on, isn't this a SWERF comic?" and "Where there's SWERF, there's TERF" (generally true).

I think that recently we have enough evidence to say that Sinfest is moving from some level of weakly or strongly suggested SWERFiness to being adequately described as a SWERF comic. If you can, please collect and present whichever individual strips and strip chains you think indicate that this is the case, as I'd rather have the case made here rather than jump to that diagnosis. Being SWERF generally also means that an individual is TERF, because the two ideologies have extre-e-e-e-e-eme comorbidity with each other and when you turn out to be SWERF, your silence and ambiguity about the gender identity and realization of trans women becomes extremely circumspect, and I think "silence and ambiguity" definitely counts here.

But, again, I'd like to see! Help me analyze Sinfest, A Comic On The Internet.

Note: This thread is not a place to entertain arguments by SWERFS or TERFS, because fuck terfs and fuck swerfs. Feel free to post things by these bugbrennanite fake goth shitgoblins whenever they should so grace this forum and we will all laugh and make fun of them for being shit, of course. Then chase them away. Thanks.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is there a link between TERF and SWERF?
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote




jesus tapdancin' christ, son
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Why is there a link between TERF and SWERF?


There is extremely heavy overlap; someone who is TERF is very likely to be SWERF, and vice versa. Reasons for this likely include that they share a prescriptive, femme-judging normative approach to feminism where the agency of a femme identity individual is discounted (in the case of SWERF, by denying that women are capable of morally exercising a personal decision to participate in sex work and discounting their personal agency).

The two are also frequently linked by both a heavy dogmatic attachment to the gender binary, gender essentialism, and (most observablt) a strong reactionary association with second wave feminism against third wave feminism.

RW noted TERFs loathe the third wave of feminism for reasons ranging from their own weirdly authoritarianist bents, demographic myopia, and "partly because they themselves represent a partial embodiment of every stereotype thrown at feminists over the last century and a half" ... they especially seem to dislike how third-wavers have taken their best ideas — understanding and fighting patriarchal structures and rape culture, the fight for reproductive rights and women's health care — forward in a way which left them vilified as transphobes and dogmatist gender essentialists that cling to notions that deny female agency. By now, they're mostly pariahs of their own (shitty, irresponsible) cause.

They also have various overlap with stridently anti-porn feminist circles, which in combination with the transmisogyny and trans phobia made for some extremely strange bedfellows. Like we're talking exclusionary feminist groups working with the goddamned Mormons for instance.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Posts: 761

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote

Draculaura wrote:



jesus tapdancin' christ, son


I didn't know that you could even do that.
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TERF: A feminist who recognizes that someone who has grown up benefiting from male privilege carries that socialization even if they start identifying as a woman, so their experience is fundamentally different than that of a woman, who will have faced misogynistic oppression her entire life. A feminist who recognizes that women and girls deserve to have their own spaces, and it is not right to force women-only spaces to kowtow to men, regardless of how those men present. A feminist who recognizes that it's OK to have fighters who's focus is to end the oppression of women, rather than saying that every other marginalized group must come first and then maybe we'll look into that whole woman thing. None of this is transphobic. Trans people are perfectly welcome as allies. They are not excluded; feminism benefits everyone. Eliminating toxic masculinity and its culture of violence and "gay panic" benefits everyone, but especially marginalized groups like women and girls, and trans people, who are victims of that violence. Eliminating gender stereotypes benefits everyone, freeing everyone from irrational societal prejudices, but especially anyone who significantly deviates from patriarchal gender norms.

SWERF: An anti-trafficking feminist; AKA, a feminist. A feminist who rejects that any woman or girl is an object or commodity. A feminist who works to eradicate an industry that is inseparable from trafficking, abuse, violence, and objectification. A feminist who rejects that men have a right to any woman's or girl's body. A feminist who supports prostituted women and girls by making sure they are always protected by the law, but the men who abuse and exploit them are not; who supports prostituted women and girls by ensuring there are physical and mental health, housing, education, employment, childcare, drug rehabilitation, legal, and community services and shelters and more to help them leave prostitution and thrive as survivors.

Totally regressive, of course. Good thing the kids, fed 30 years of explicitly patriarchal marketing meant to combat the successes of first and second wave feminism, are here with the men to 'splain us this feminism thing.
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
Posts: 1988
Location: at your mom's house

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
Draculaura wrote:



jesus tapdancin' christ, son


I didn't know that you could even do that.


It's merely a matter of equal patience and nuttery, but it's doable.

As for TinT:


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0z79



Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 567

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
Draculaura wrote:



jesus tapdancin' christ, son


I didn't know that you could even do that.


You mean, there's no "rainbow" color.. they individually entered the hex numbers for the different color gradients? Jeez, I thought I had OCD....
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean it looks nice but was it really worth it

Even made a little header

Sam's heart's really in this
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motherfuckin... Photoshop 3D effects and color-shifted shadows and shit, dawg

You got a day-job or something, fam
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
TERF: A feminist who recognizes that someone who has grown up benefiting from male privilege carries that socialization even if they start identifying as a woman, so their experience is fundamentally different than that of a woman, who will have faced misogynistic oppression her entire life.


I don't really feel like I benefitted from gendered conditioning. Back when I was an egg I felt immense pressure to be masculine even though I didn't want to be in the first place. I was told by the media that it wasn't okay for me to cry or show any sort of vulnerability and that anger was the only acceptable negative emotion for me to feel. I was also told that if doing anything even slightly feminine coded was a death sentence. I felt like I had to put on an act just to have basic human decency (I still do because I'm not out to everyone in my family).

Not to mention that dysphoria wreaked havoc on my already low self-esteem. I spent ten years feeling like something was wrong with my body, turns out that was my dysphoria talking. I wasn't really benefitting from gender roles when it was one of the reasons I was self-loathing and suicidal for so long (not to mention the self-harm).

TinT wrote:
A feminist who recognizes that women and girls deserve to have their own spaces, and it is not right to force women-only spaces to kowtow to men, regardless of how those men present.


I hate this idea that we're all secretly just trying to invade women's spaces. It just perpetuates the stereotype that we're all creepy crossdressing sexual predators out to get cis women and girls. This kind of rhetoric gets people like me killed all the goddamned time by angry cis men. It's also the reason for the recent bathroom bills.

TinT wrote:
A feminist who recognizes that it's OK to have fighters who's focus is to end the oppression of women, rather than saying that every other marginalized group must come first and then maybe we'll look into that whole woman thing.


I haven't heard anybody say that, like at all.

TinT wrote:
None of this is transphobic.


Saying that trans women are actually creepy male sexual predators out to get cis women is about as transphobic as you can get.

TinT wrote:
Trans people are perfectly welcome as allies. They are not excluded


Except you're excluding us right now by relegating us to the "ally" label instead of acknowledging us as who we are (y'know as women).

TinT wrote:
Totally regressive, of course. Good thing the kids, fed 30 years of explicitly patriarchal marketing meant to combat the successes of first and second wave feminism, are here with the men to 'splain us this feminism thing.


No one here wants to combat feminism (except for random trolls that get immediately shutdown) we just want more inclusivity by not dehumanizing and misgendering trans people.


Last edited by Nobody Important on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1844

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Note: This thread is not a place to entertain arguments by SWERFS or TERFS, because fuck terfs and fuck swerfs. Feel free to post things by these bugbrennanite fake goth shitgoblins whenever they should so grace this forum and we will all laugh and make fun of them for being shit, of course. Then chase them away. Thanks.

...I don't know how likely this can be.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Good thing the kids, fed 30 years of explicitly patriarchal marketing meant to combat the successes of first and second wave feminism, are here with the men to 'splain us this feminism thing.


Thanks for stopping by to prove that you're shitty, transphobic garbage and then let us drink your fuckin' old-ass tears over that "the kids" will not only not get off your lawn, but done left your ass behind by knowing what you are and disavowing your runny gooseshit nonintersectional radfem garbage. Say hi to Cathy Brennan on the way to finding some old hole to die in, thanks!
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11323

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I'm running 12 hour days in a UXD immersive. So we'll call it day job x2. The header took me maybe five minutes total using Adobe cloud 3d toolset and the rainbow text was maybe 30 seconds in bbcode pattern generation tools.

Work smarter, not harder
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d5xtgr



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I have a question on terminology.
As I learned it, there are three layered spectra:

  • On the top, presentation runs from masculine to feminine.
  • In the middle, identity runs from man to woman.
  • At the base, sex runs from male to female.

For example, a "tomboy" would be masculine in presentation, but a woman in identity and female in sex. A transgender person would be either female and a man, or male and a woman. And of course it is possible to not fall at either extreme on one or more scales (inter-whatever). Does this match with how the terms are used on this board? If not, how does the local usage differ?

And some other related musings:
Is a transgender-aware definition of "woman" falsifiable in the scientific sense; that is, is it possible for someone to say "I am a woman" and for another person to demonstrate that the speaker is lying? How does one go about demonstrating falsehood?

Why is misgendering considered transphobia and not simply being in error on a point of fact?

And I have a kind of foreboding given the recent level of hostility on this board, so let me just point out that I'm not SWERF or TERF or any kind of *RF; I only got to the F part. Wink
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