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The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread
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cobradane



Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
There's a reddit Q&A about sex workers and how they're affected by SESTA/FOSTA. It's ongoing so if you ask a question they might answer.


It's kind of funny how Tat avoids ever portraying this group of people. How would they fit into the sinfest universe, where all sex work is coerced and all sex workers hate what they do?
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
There's a reddit Q&A about sex workers and how they're affected by SESTA/FOSTA. It's ongoing so if you ask a question they might answer.


This was really interesting, definitely recommended.
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KALXAK
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatsuya Ishida wrote:
Hi everybody.

Please engage respectfully.

I will ban anyone who resorts to insults, smears, bullying, verbal abuse of any kind.

Thank you.


Thank you.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11363

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you are a trans exclusionary radical feminist and thus a bigot, you need to stop posting in this thread. This place is not for entertaining your regressive, discriminatory ideals. Go away.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Posts: 844

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She seems willing to listen to me when I talk about trans issues. So I think you should give her some credit for at least trying to understand people like me.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2186
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I thought they could learn something from having an actual trans person be the only one still sticking up for them but no.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Because talking about women's agency is a bad thing, people! Bad! Baaaaad
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Pineapple



Joined: 01 Jan 2015
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleocatra wrote:
Professor_Frink wrote:
Well now my profile picture is a tiny hatoful boyfriend pigeon. The best laid plans of mice and men...
Okosan!

I have him as my facebook profile pic after someone was stalking me lol


my girlfriend has a hatoful boyfriend pigeon dakimakura
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11363

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Know Better is the cry of all sorts of men, but it's usually from the right wing.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 270
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:


Because talking about women's agency is a bad thing, people! Bad! Baaaaad


It's not like people don't talk about trafficking anyway, it's just like.. not the only thing to talk about, nor is it confined to sex work.

It's like saying, "Sex work can give people stds therefore it's a bad job."

Just 'cuz the disease is sexual doesn't make it dirtier or worse than miners getting pulmonary disease. People still go down mines, just wear protective gear and get checkups. Same with all other work.

The whole thing reeks of madonna/whore. Like beforehand he was all "haha sexy bitches" and now he's like "to make penance for my crimes all women are untouchable goddesses and men are basically base demons who need to know they can't think about women sexually and especially not pay women for sex since that's treating women like sexual objects which no woman ever wants because they must be pure"
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Vixine



Joined: 12 Jan 2016
Posts: 368

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly? Yeah. He seems especially adverse to the notion that women can be anything less than perfectly feminist, and men can be any better than a well meaning failure of an ally. Which is extra weird coming from a male author.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21305
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i keep hoping, as squiq and slick show signs of wanting to get a clue and treat women as fellow human beings, that there will be some progress made - as someone who knows and is even related to various male beings, i hate the depiction that they are all, at heart, johnbies. really not getting this incessant demonizing of men, and the refusal to recognize that there might be a better way - one that does away with the exploitation and the trafficking and all that, but still allows people who want it the option of a commercial sexual transaction.

of course, in a world where it looks like USian women, at least, may be losing all sorts of choices, maybe he's trying to be symbolic of more than just prostitution. after all, there are still people who insist that the reason there aren't more women doctors is because women chose to become nurses rather than doctors (on account of learning all that doctoring stuff is _hard_). it's easier to dismiss people's inability to meet their aspirations if you can dismiss it as "they choose to be like that"
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imo outside of the wider issue of TERF and SWERF online methodologies (emphasis on online, as they don't have much managed presence in wider feminism or leftist circles; they'd be banned outright from most DSA events or progressive meets), let's get proto-Zizeky.

I think it's rather easy to settle on now that much of what's going on in the comic is going to be progressively less useful to analyze on a rhetorical level or as ideology, and increasingly only useful to look at in terms of the radicalized pathology of the author. We know where we're at now, and Sinfest has answered most of the relevant questions. It's 100% swerf, and it 100% guaranteed is responding to shit in this thread and on this forum, making oddly disjointed punchbacks against the daemon of feminists who are sex work inclusive. There's absolutely no doubt left that the comic has actively and intentionally engaged in the propagation of SWERF ideology, and it's becoming more relevant over time that it is actively and intentionally avoiding the issue of trans women identity; it's hiding what its position would be, whether out of fear or disinterest.

So, where do we go from here?

A lot of what's going on here that we've argued against is shit that isolates you from feminism and most people who are outspoken SWERFS and TERFS both will have consciously come to an understanding of their isolation and developed a rationale for that stigmatization, holding themselves as legitimate feminists and all other intersectional feminism as misguided or corrupt. TERFiness can look patently ridiculous in particular, but there's nothing surprising about that. There's weird, broken offshoots of all sorts of identity politics, like how Hapas mirrors the weird brokenness of Gendercritical. Is there increased zeal over time, or increased fatalism? What do the increasingly isolated ideological reinforcement mechanisms look like, and what impacts do they have? How overt and out of place are the messages becoming? What's even really happening here on a psychological level? Do we want to have to witness the answers to these questions? Probably not.
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MochaKimono



Joined: 27 Jun 2018
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I registered in order to add some two cents after lurking on the forums for a while now, though I apologize if I rehash anything that's already been stated.

I think it's... interesting that while the comic and its characters decry the sexual objectification and victimization of women, a whole lot of the comic is just as dedicated to spotlighting sexy half-naked women as before, if not even more so nowadays. Of course if storylines focus on sex workers you'll probably see women in skimpy clothing, but it feels like a lot of the 'camera directing' (for lack of a better phrase off the top of my head) and the shading style still gives an overabundance of half-naked women in sensual poses, not to mention that with the focus on their victimization, a lot of these half-naked sexualized women are shown prone, splayed out and lying down, being terrified, or painfully tortured.

If one took away the speech bubbles telling us how bad this all is, one could easily mistake this comic for softcore cheesecake meant to titillate us with an endless showcasing of helpless women forced into half-nudity and demeaned by male power fantasy characters. I can't remember the last time any girl or woman in this entire comic was shown feeling free or happy that didn't also reduce that happiness to something sexual (Abby and Monique and the, ahem, detailed half-apple rendering). Only Tange's appearances come close.

Even with the speech bubbles, one might even come to the conclusion that the anti-pornography stance is only a cardboard framework to house the cavalcade of objectified women. I'm not sure if it's intentional, but it is... interesting that the message I get from the comic these days is that woman are only allowed to be seen if they're sexually desirable and submissive/frightened, and women who don't want to be should just go hide in the woods where nobody can see them. Every pose struck is a pinup pose to highlight their curvy bodies, and detail in the faces is only given for tertiary sexual characteristics of makeup, eyelashes, lips, etc. Anyone who attempts to interact with them without sexually victimizing them is only an insincere white knight, mentally ill/handicapped (the 'ub' guy), or a literal child.

The comic has become rather dour in its treatment of women, in a way that could make a woman feel especially vulnerable and exposed seeing only this sort of representation. Every time there's a spark of hope for a woman to feel liberated or happy, a man comes to physically destroy their symbols of prosperity and drive them further underground (literally). At this point the dystopia reads as having an underlying message of, "Don't you dare buck the patriarchy or this is what happens to you." Which I'm sure is the opposite intent, but it's an... interesting vibe I'm getting.

Anyway, just some observations on how one could interpret or analyze the comic these days (likely not artist intent but still). I hope this is the correct thread to make this post in. It seemed the most apt place, since it doesn't relate to any specific strip but a trend on the "feminist" qualities of the work as a whole.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, this is the right place....and you raise an interesting point.

is Tat in a sense trolling us with all these images of prostituted women? i will point out that there are still a lot of images where women's images are not sexualized (like sunday's comic) - but yeah, now that you bring it up, you could almost see it as Tat's way of getting around the much-less-sinnier-sinfest he's gotten into lately.
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