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The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21298
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and welcome!
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was a pro post and i think i've talked about it not on the forums. my best guess personally is that it is a side effect of the general rhetorical incoherence of the comic's presented ideology, strictly unintended but absolutely present regardless of intent.

the major discussion we did have about that is seperable into two camps

CAMP 1: for this camp, this is the categorical effect of a male trying to speak for women, and the entirety of Tatsuya's alternation between pedestaling, damseling, and visually exploiting the gratuitously lewd imagery of conventionally attractive women is an anticipatable byproduct of Tatsuya, as a man, trying to speak for sex workers without checking his own gaze issues, and is an example of punching down and a discussion of impact vs intent.

read: "this is what happens when a man tries to white knight sex workers - it just turns into thinly veiled patriarchal paternalism full of male gaze depictions of women in various appointed roles and plenty of overtly sexualized, sex-marketed and conventional sexual attractiveness (to men) depictions"

CAMP 2: for this camp, Tatsuya's gender doesn't have to be explicitly relevant and you can assume more in the way of rhetorical incoherence being the problem, if not a complete pass for the problematic nature of the strip entirely outside of bald-ass swerfiness.

read: "while it's unsurprising that a man's effort to paternalistically 'support' sex workers by telling them they don't know what's good for themselves ends up pretty bad, that's more a function of swerf ideology's unsupportable talking over of women's agency, and less about the author being a man"

this is mostly a gratuitous point of curiosity or differing interpretation by feminists, though. between both groups is a shared agreement that what the comic is doing is anti-feminist. so, take the selectivity of the ideological housing as you will.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think there's at least some element of reflecting perceived problems in the world. Characters aren't getting redemption arcs because the real world hasn't been changing, and if the character got a redemption arc, they would disconnect from the real world allegory they're meant to symbolize.

If there was an outpouring of male support for feminism, if the segment of men Slick is supposed to portray shrinks to nothing, he might finally get a redemption arc.

Then again, Squig seems to be shaping up despite the apathetic segment of the population becoming some of the worst barriers to progress. *shrug*
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7584

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jesus, MochaKimono just drops in and pinpoints exactly why i feel so weird about the comic lately. thanks!
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Absynthe



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 713

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
jesus, MochaKimono just drops in and pinpoints exactly why i feel so weird about the comic lately. thanks!


No shit, right?

I'm over here two-fingering the keyboard like some fevered Luddite trying to form a coherent sentence, and MochaKimono steps up with a concise and insightful post right out the gate.

Welcome, MochaKimono, please stay and chat.

#jealousofyourskills
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dulietina



Joined: 14 May 2018
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, hi.

I red from time to time this forum, its very interesting and I learned a lot of the multiplicities of human nature and ideas. I never thought of joining and then I red (a part of) this thread and I thought "ok, there are a lot of people who seem angry on something that, to me, was quite missing in the comic, maybe I have something interesting to add".

And I thought I would give my two cents.

So. The premise is that I do understand and stand by the free choice of sex workers and the concerns they have about the representation of sex workers.

What I would like to add is on the comic level: I do not think that anywhere in the comic it was implicitely said "these are all sex workers of the planet and they are all not free". I think we are forgetting that the story takes places in the Devil's sex district and revolves around some sex workers that were not free and were trying to free themselves. So yes, it is their world we are talking about and in their world (that is, from their prespective) sex workers were not free.

The comic in this moment revolves around the sex-by-the-devil or sex-by-the-patriarchy ambient. Now, I think that at this point saying, in the comic "hi, but here are some sex workers by free choice" would be demeaning to the story of the freed women, a little like putting the story of a raped person and then saying "hey, but here is the story of a freely chosen active sexual life", the justaposixion would be a little weird to say the least.

Moreover it has been many time displayed how Devil=Patriarchy system tries to program the women in order for them to be sexual objects or men's property, with this in mind I do not think that the current narrative should be red against sex work per se, but against this programming.

Just to put it in some prespective: the Devil's industry was polluting everything and badly treating their workers. It was representing the "bad" side of industry, not conveying the messages that "industry is bad per se".

One more thing:
MochaKimono wrote:
IEvery time there's a spark of hope for a woman to feel liberated or happy, a man comes to physically destroy their symbols of prosperity and drive them further underground (literally). At this point the dystopia reads as having an underlying message of, "Don't you dare buck the patriarchy or this is what happens to you."

Well, as a women I relate with this a lot. The feeling that every step forward there is a "Roe v. Wade"-threat dragging back. That fighting against the system is endless, tiring, drags you down in so many ways. That when you think you are surrounded by decent people you'll often hear that half-threatening sexist comment that will make you feel more unsecure at night, at work, everywhere.

So, to wrap it up, this is not to say "everything is perfect", while I do love this comic, in the last years even more than before. It is to say that, maybe, by focusing on one important issue (sex worker rights, to sum it up) we are forgetting that it is equally important to remember that there are many sex workers that are not free (and maybe in the US you are way behind on this, but I only know about Europe), that this is (partialy) a story about some of them, and the objetification of women. That treating an important theme like sexual exploitation may not be demeaning of other important problems, just because one choses one battle at a time.

I still recall the story of a prostitute who told the journalist "I told the guy I wasn't there by free choice, I told him that I was ensclaved and could not leave. He answered me that he was sorry but this did not change the fact that he had paid and would have what he paid for". Can we be at least happy that someone is telling their story, even in a comic, with all its limitations?
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7584

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dulietina wrote:
Can we be at least happy that someone is telling their story, even in a comic, with all its limitations?

not when it risks doing more harm than good, tbh. whether it's the limitations of the medium or what, if the intention is to help those women, I'm not sure it's hitting it's mark.

it's alienating what was originally a sympathetic audience with a message that's unclear, offers no solutions, and is tearing down the people it supposedly speaks for.

im well and thoroughly sick of seeing nameless women being sexualized and used. maybe your point would ring more true to me if we had names or personalities for these people but we don't, they literally only exist to be victims and nothing more. that's not helping anyone. i feel awful for anyone that relates to them because the driving message is not hopeful and it hasn't been for a long time.
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Vixine



Joined: 12 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great line of discussion from the discord server;

The magnificent and totally lost upon him irony of Tatsuya's paternalistic patronizing way of mansplaining feminism.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 533
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vixine wrote:
A great line of discussion from the discord server;

The magnificent and totally lost upon him irony of Tatsuya's paternalistic patronizing way of mansplaining feminism.


This. I'm astonished and horrified. I thought he'd go after the person who attacked the transwoman poster, not after the transwoman poster who defended herself against being misgendered and erased.

The "no one is doing this to you" bit keeps making me think it's some variant on gaslighting. Sad
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Dalrint



Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChastMastr wrote:
This. I'm astonished and horrified. I thought he'd go after the person who attacked the transwoman poster, not after the transwoman poster who defended herself against being misgendered and erased.

The "no one is doing this to you" bit keeps making me think it's some variant on gaslighting. Sad


It is absolutely a form of gaslighting. He's implying the trans woman is being defensive about things that didn't happen when they clearly did. He's implying the insult she received was just in her head when it was not.

But, out of curiosity, what has Tatsuya ever said or done that made you think he would defend the transwoman?
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A general assumption of basic human decency?
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suds



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must be new here.
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Pineapple



Joined: 01 Jan 2015
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalrint wrote:
ChastMastr wrote:
This. I'm astonished and horrified. I thought he'd go after the person who attacked the transwoman poster, not after the transwoman poster who defended herself against being misgendered and erased.

The "no one is doing this to you" bit keeps making me think it's some variant on gaslighting. Sad


It is absolutely a form of gaslighting. He's implying the trans woman is being defensive about things that didn't happen when they clearly did. He's implying the insult she received was just in her head when it was not.

But, out of curiosity, what has Tatsuya ever said or done that made you think he would defend the transwoman?


The fact that it would completely alienate me if he did not?

ChastMastr wrote:
A general assumption of basic human decency?


that too





also maybe just hope

despite knowing deep down that reality is far darker than I would hope
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21298
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing is, he did seem to support generally just basic decency to each other. and the whole live-and-let-live ethos the forum had - you could say anything, but then you would have to deal with the reactions (especially if what you said was shit). i guess i associate that with a sort of liberalism of spirit that says, whatever you are, you just be you. well, and that he used to express love for his forum in general, and it has always included all _sorts_ of people.

but i guess all that was just me assuming things. sorry, not putting this is words very well.


maybe what it really comes down to is, i want to believe that someone whose work i like, who has amused me, is also someone i would like personally, i.e, someone who at least tolerates my views, if not actually sharing them. which may be why it hurts to much to think i was wrong, because it means i was also stupid.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pineapple wrote:

The fact that it would completely alienate me if he did not?


Which has now happened for me, too, and it's weird. I feel like I'm going through some kind of grieving process. I'm still sort of in shock about it all.

Well, as it says in Tartuffe...

Quote:
And it is best to err, if err one must,
As you have done, upon the side of trust.


But damn, Tat, that hurts.
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