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April 1: Garden
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 7566

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boy howdy does this one make me uncomfortable in a way thats hard to articulate.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try though. because of course i will.

i nope hard away from the implication that "deflowering" means "sex" means "loss of innocence". having sex, consentual or otherwise, has fuck all to do with innocence. the only thing that affects how innocent you are is the crimes you do or don't commit.
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MTGradwell



Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 155
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:

.. the only thing that affects how innocent you are is the crimes you do or don't commit.


innocence
ˈɪnəsəns
noun

1 the state, quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence.
"they must prove their innocence"

2 lack of guile or corruption; purity.
"the healthy bloom in her cheeks gave her an aura of innocence"

3 euphemistic
a person's virginity.
"all the boys lost their innocence with her"

You seem to be acquainted only with meaning 1 but the dictionary gives 2 other meanings, and the cartoon does seem to be exploring meanings 2 and 3 by using defloration as a metaphor.
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Absynthe



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 701

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
although "deflowering" seems to be the most obvious interpretation i sorta got the impression it isnt just about deflowering. no, because taking a flower isn't inherently bad. but what is bad is all of these men coming around, thinking theyre entitled to all those flowers, taking, and taking, and taking, over and over, without any concern for the gardener who planted those flowers, or how long it took the gardener to plant them and tend to them... and without giving the gardener a chance to take care of the garden before completely draining her garden of all the flowers and resources available.

which makes sense as a metaphor for the exploitation she's experienced.


Well said, that really fits this comic.

And to +1 Samsally's point, equating having sex with a loss of innocence presupposes that there's something inherently evil about having sex, which I utterly reject.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mh... I could see Miss M's interpretation being the case. It'd make the strip's "message" more tolerable all in all, so why not give it the benefit of the doubt.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MTGradwell wrote:
Samsally wrote:

.. the only thing that affects how innocent you are is the crimes you do or don't commit.


innocence
ˈɪnəsəns
noun

1 the state, quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence.
"they must prove their innocence"

2 lack of guile or corruption; purity.
"the healthy bloom in her cheeks gave her an aura of innocence"

3 euphemistic
a person's virginity.
"all the boys lost their innocence with her"

You seem to be acquainted only with meaning 1 but the dictionary gives 2 other meanings, and the cartoon does seem to be exploring meanings 2 and 3 by using defloration as a metaphor.

you condescending fuckstick

just because a dictionary does it too doesn't make it any less fucked up

how far up your ass did you dig for that anyway? it's sure not any of the normal Google responses so you obviously had to go looking
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MTGradwell



Joined: 09 Nov 2014
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Mh... I could see Miss M's interpretation being the case. It'd make the strip's "message" more tolerable all in all, so why not give it the benefit of the doubt.


I see the strip as intentionally having multiple interpretations, including Miss M's. In fact I can see Miss M's intepretation as being the most basic "core" one because it's hard to disagree with. It's pretty much a straightforward description of what we see when we look at the strip. So, OK.
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MTGradwell



Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 155
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
it's sure not any of the normal Google responses so you obviously had to go looking


innocence

About 73,300,000 results (0.45 seconds)
Dictionary
innocence
ˈɪnəsəns.....
It's the first thing that appears at the top of my Google search results.
Google tailors its output to the individual. Through long acquaintance it knows everything about you, including your apparent dislike of dictionary definitions, so it doesn't give you a dictionary definition.

(edit: Incidentally, when I do a Google search without being logged in I still get the same dictionary definition at the top of my results, and I get the same thing when I use Bing)


Last edited by MTGradwell on Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1844

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I have to agree with MTGradwell here, Samsally. Innocence as applied to vulnerability stemming from the lack of experience is a really common interpretation.

Let's be topical, in the Spanish language "April's Fools" is called Innocents' Day. As applied to lost virginity it isn't that common, but it doesn't confound me, exactly.

And while one could make a case and disagree with the way the language has developed and the historical context behind the different definitions for the same word it doesn't make such definitions less valid.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doesn't change that it's still fucked up and you stepped in to condescendingly quote a dictionary at me over a post all about why something makes me uncomfortable.

like i get you wanna dig your heels in over ~logic~ or whatever but my point was "this equivalence is fucked up and makes me uncomfortable" and you responded by being a colossal jackass so congrats i guess.
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MTGradwell



Joined: 09 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
doesn't change that it's still fucked up and you stepped in to condescendingly quote a dictionary at me over a post all about why something makes me uncomfortable.


You weren't posting in a vacuum. Before you noped hard, I had said "It's equating loss of virginity with loss of innocence". You didn't directly quote me, but it certainly looked like you were responding to what I had said. And that's OK, when I post I'm happy if people respond, because that's the point.

Of course you weren't necessarily responding directly to me. Maybe you had independently reached the same conclusion as me, and maybe you were wanting to voice your dissatisfaction with that conclusion to the world at large. But in any case the dictionary definition seemed to be relevant, and when you address the world at large you should expect the world at large to respond.

Your "the only thing that affects how innocent you are is the crimes you do or don't commit" seemed to imply that you were aware of only one of the three dictionary definitions of innocence that I gave. If you were aware of all three definitions but disagreed with two of them then I misinterpreted your words. I told you stuff that you already knew, which could be seen as condescending, and for that I apologise.
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starkruzr



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This comic feels like it slots into the "Sinfest did a regressive feminism" thread real easy.
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Mr Zero



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see this as "deflowering" at all. Though the pun sure fits.
District Girl's things, that she worked hard to create, were taken when she wasn't there. Instead of a land of beauty, she is left with shock and disappointment. It's all gone. And therefore dead and gone, because that's what happens to picked flowers. No closure, no memories- other than the hard work it took to grow the flowers. No flowers to last the year. She came back to find that she was left with nothing.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 21214
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SA_Penguin wrote:
Silly me. I saw a woman tending to flowers. In an area open to the public.

Several men took flowers, either without paying OR not paying enough.

Come harvest time, she didn't have enough product... she lost her shirt [literally] and ended up in the bomf zone.

The morals being:
1. Don't grow a cash crop on public land.
2. If a stranger wants part of your cash crop, make damn sure they pay.


uh....it was a dream, there is no suggestion that she had to work in the bomf zone because she couldn't make it as a gardener (seriously, if she did it to make a living, would she have done it on public land?)

i saw it as Miss M did - all these men just taking something because it was beautiful and they just figured they would take them. and i suppose if you had asked them, each would have said 'but i only took one! or a few...." not realizing that the cumulative effect of everyone taking something because they assumed it was just there for them to take (even in public parks, most people won't just pick all the flowers) and yeah, it does equate to them just assuming any pretty women is put there for their enjoyment, to take as they please....hence, the bomf zone where men make use of women because they can, without stopping to think what the cumulative effect is.
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MTGradwell



Joined: 09 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

uh....it was a dream, there is no suggestion that she had to work in the bomf zone because she couldn't make it as a gardener (seriously, if she did it to make a living, would she have done it on public land?)

One way it might work as a recollection of actual events would be if she was employed as a park-keeper by the parks department of the city corporation. There'd be by-laws against picking the flowers, and signs pointing out the by-laws, but no actual enforcement because cutbacks. After the devastation of the park, the corporation would decide on one more cutback.

But I agree it's unlikely that the dream is a literal depiction of actual events. I just like that the strip is open to several interpretations. I think this shows that Tat is more nuanced than people give him credit for. Also even without seeing the dream as a literal depiction of actual events it's still possible to conclude that the moral of the story is "don't grow cash crops on public land", or something like that.
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