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May 9, 2018: Better Programming 9
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Caimsen



Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 751
Location: The good old World

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
if you realized just how much gun regulation and protections against automatic weapons ownership that those countries have compared to the united states, you'd realize how wrong what you are saying is.

it would conservatively take me about ten to fifteen minutes to walk into a store and purchase an AR-15.

If I have an additional three hours, I have extended mags.

If I have an additional five days, I have an 80% lower machined into being fully automatic.


I think this is now funny, because somebody said to me that its not that easy to get one because of the backgroundchecks in the Usa.

Here you get your Gun after 3 Days, so that if you are mad, you cool down. Of course you just are allowed to own them, but not to wear them and carry them with you all the Time. But you can get nearly all Guns exept the ones that are made for War. On the other Hand, you can get the Basic Model of one Riffle, that can be used as a Snipergun....

I still wonder how unsave somebody must feel to want to have an automatic Riffle or Assault Weapons.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it varies by state but you honestly can have a mass murder capable weapon within minutes in many many parts of the united states. and in that case we're JUST talking legal acquisition. the other part of it is that there's just so many guns in open circulation in the country as a result that it is also so much easier to get weapons illegally through secondhand sale or theft than it would be in another country
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Strix Varia



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
it varies by state but you honestly can have a mass murder capable weapon within minutes in many many parts of the united states. and in that case we're JUST talking legal acquisition ...


I know what you mean. Like many people in the united states, I also drive a car.
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Professor_Frink



Joined: 21 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strix Varia wrote:
Sam wrote:
it varies by state but you honestly can have a mass murder capable weapon within minutes in many many parts of the united states. and in that case we're JUST talking legal acquisition ...


I know what you mean. Like many people in the united states, I also drive a car.


If guns were regulated to the extent that cars were, with testing, license checks, getting it taken away if you use it under the influence, attending traffic school for violations, being ticketed for violations, mandatory insurance and updating the registration yearly, and the industry being required to equip safety standards to prevent deaths, that would be super. Oh, and penalties for lack of proper child safety features.
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Strix Varia



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They largely are. Try getting caught with an unlicensed gun. Having someone get hurt only to find that the safety didn't work or that the gun wasn't secured in a locker. Remember that all gun shot wounds HAVE to be reported to the police. Try having a loaded gun in your car. Or on your person without a permit. See how long you stay out of jail if you are caught carrying a gun while drunk or on drugs. Try getting a gun if you have a felony. There are a lot of good common sense rules and laws that I fully support when it comes to gun ownership. If you break these laws, you lose your guns.

On the other hand, the number of car related injuries/deaths every day are insanely higher than gun injuries/deaths. Car accidents are easier to prevent also. Put away those phones while driving kids. And seatbelts do save lives. But if cars were banned in as many places as guns were, there would be almost no auto accidents at all.
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Bogy



Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 272
Location: United States

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strix Varia wrote:
They largely are. Try getting caught with an unlicensed gun. Having someone get hurt only to find that the safety didn't work or that the gun wasn't secured in a locker. Remember that all gun shot wounds HAVE to be reported to the police. Try having a loaded gun in your car. Or on your person without a permit. See how long you stay out of jail if you are caught carrying a gun while drunk or on drugs. Try getting a gun if you have a felony. There are a lot of good common sense rules and laws that I fully support when it comes to gun ownership. If you break these laws, you lose your guns.

On the other hand, the number of car related injuries/deaths every day are insanely higher than gun injuries/deaths. Car accidents are easier to prevent also. Put away those phones while driving kids. And seatbelts do save lives. But if cars were banned in as many places as guns were, there would be almost no auto accidents at all.
I'm white, and live in a stare where I don't need to license any guns I own. I would only need a permit to carry a handgun on my person. With that easily obtained permit I can carry a loaded gun in a car. Without the permit it would need to be unloaded.

As far as death rates, if you put it terms of how many cars are driven each day compared to how many people are carrying, guns surpass cars. Also, if you look at the death rate on a per miles driven basis, the death toll after the introduction of seatbelts, airbags, padded dashes, safety glass, and numerous other safety equipment added to cars over the years, deaths are a fraction of what they were previously. However, the NRA rigorously fights any changes to make firearms safer. I remember when the NRA's primary function was promoting gun safety, specifically hunter safety. I took an NRA hunter safety course 50 years ago so I could get my hunting license at 14. I've owned and used a number of guns since then, handguns and long guns. I sold the last one, a handgun, to a federally licensed dealer who specializes in military collectibles, because I didn't want it to go to someone who might want think it would be neat to carry on a daily basis. It was made in Poland during WW2 by slave labor, and the safety might have been intended to kill the Nazi who carried it. I have no need for guns anymore. My knees are shot, I don't hunt, and I would rather be killed than live with the thought that I had killed someone. Although, to be honest, if someone came into my church next Sunday and tried to shoot me, they would likely never make it out alive. I'm reasonably sure there are at least a half dozen men and women concealed carrying on any given Sunday. That doesn't count the two LEOs who attend while on duty (actually 3, but the K9 doesn't carry). Did I mention its incredibly easy to get a permit to carry in my state?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I have to register exactly jack shit wrt guns and as of not too long ago in the oughts the constitution protects my right to like, carry an AR-15 with a drum magazine into Starbucks with me.

Whereas a car is not consistently constitutionally secured and assured to me. A car I have to register, pass classes for. Be physically and mentally qualified first. Etc.

Gun laws in this nation are profoundly insane
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Strix Varia



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
A car I have to register, pass classes for. Be physically and mentally qualified first. Etc.

You had to take a psych evaluation to buy a car?? And pass a physical exam? And take car classes? I have never heard of that. Usually I just go into the dealership, show proof of insurance, then lay money down. Then they sign registration over and it's all good. I don't think you even need a drivers license to buy a car. Just to drive it.

As far as gun laws being insane, If I had just been released from prison yesterday for the crimes of murder and armed robbery, I could still legally buy many dangerous things. I could buy the materials to make plastic explosives, fertilizer bombs, explosive timers, cars to convert into speeding ground missiles or car bombs. Along with Rat poison and chlorine gas for starters. But I could NOT buy hand guns. That is because there are rules and regulations. Such as most states requiring safety training as part of getting those easy to obtain carry permits.

So yes it is easy to get and carry a gun if you have a clean record and use it responsibly. It is also easy to loose your gun if you act stupid with it. Like waving your AR-15 with a drum magazine around wildly or pointing at people with it while standing in a Starbucks.

(Side note: Because of the searches for this post, I am probably now on about a dozen federal watch lists Confused )
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strix Varia wrote:
Sam wrote:
A car I have to register, pass classes for. Be physically and mentally qualified first. Etc.

You had to take a psych evaluation to buy a car?? And pass a physical exam? And take car classes? I have never heard of that.


you've.. never heard of drivers ed? done the eye exam? taken the test before they'd give you a license?

i can literally be brought up on charges for driving without eye correction, I'm considered legally blind without it (which is for the best really, i can't see how many fingers someone has up from six feet away)
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Bogy



Joined: 30 Sep 2014
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Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strix Varia wrote:
As far as gun laws being insane, If I had just been released from prison yesterday for the crimes of murder and armed robbery, I could still legally buy many dangerous things. I could buy the materials to make plastic explosives, fertilizer bombs, explosive timers, cars to convert into speeding ground missiles or car bombs. Along with Rat poison and chlorine gas for starters. But I could NOT buy hand guns. That is because there are rules and regulations. Such as most states requiring safety training as part of getting those easy to obtain carry permits.

Samsally already answered the classes and vision aspect of driving, so I'll just respond to one aspect of what you wrote here. You can still go into your local Wal-Mart and buy some organic fertilizer, but if you want to buy large quantities of agricultural fertilizer, ammonium nitrate, you are going to have to deal with regulations put in place by the Department of Homeland Safety, in response to the Oklahoma City bombing. The fertilizer will be tagged (small plastic tags, mixed into the fertilizer). You will have to be registered to purchase the fertilizer, and go through a screening process as part of that which will be kept in a national registry with DHS. OTOH, I can walk into my county sheriff's office, and he will have to provide me with a permit to carry. I would have to show that I had taken a gun safety class, but that can be done online, and I wouldn't have to show any kind of proficiency to prove I had actually watched that online class. Just paid the $30. OTOH, over the years I have been licensed to drive in 7 states (not all at the same time). Depending on the state, I have at minimum had to pass a written test, and sometimes a driving test, even though I have been driving for decades. Currently I can get a license which will last from 5 to 8 years (random). Two years from now, I will hit the age where the length of time before I need to renew will start to shorten. In 8 years I will hit the age where I will need to renew my license to drive every 2 years. However, a Carry Permit will be good for 5 years, no matter how old and feeble I got. That permit would also allow me to buy all the handguns I wanted, for that period of 5 years.

Fertilizer that can be tracked, with a national registry for farmers who use it, you take off your shoes every time you get on a plane (at least they don't make you take off your underwear), seatbelts and airbags, all responses to danger or perceived danger. But in my state the laws and regulations concerning firearms have been weakened. You can't get an abortion in my state if the fetus is over six weeks old, but (as a white man) I could kill someone if I feel "threatened" and walk away without a care due to "stand your ground" which doesn't even require me to make an effort try to find another solution, like walking away. I'm free to to just pull out a gun and start blasting. Try that with fertilizer.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Strix Varia, why do you think there are so many more gun deaths in the USA than almost everywhere else?
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Strix Varia wrote:
Sam wrote:
A car I have to register, pass classes for. Be physically and mentally qualified first. Etc.

You had to take a psych evaluation to buy a car?? And pass a physical exam? And take car classes? I have never heard of that.


you've.. never heard of drivers ed? done the eye exam? taken the test before they'd give you a license?

i can literally be brought up on charges for driving without eye correction, I'm considered legally blind without it (which is for the best really, i can't see how many fingers someone has up from six feet away)


Strix is trying to make an abstruse point with regards to the qualifications for a car purchase versus the qualifications for car operations. It doesn't work out very well in my interpretation but for reasons I think should be a bit obvious, because in each case we're concerned about license to operate and common concerns of operation as well as ownership.

But in case it needs to be said, the infamous Car to Gun comparisons are always just a little bit stupid, and usually a lot stupid.

Cars are not guns. I don't care that cars "also have some regulatory guidelines" — Cars have multiple necessary and ingrained usages in modern society and modern economies to almost completely necessitate their ubiquitous presence, and yet they still require significant regulatory guidelines for being licensed to operate one.

Guns do not, and guns are much more dangerous than cars. There's no real conversation involving parity between gun regulation and car regulation, because one is a raven and the other is a writing desk. Guns need to be much MORE regulated than cars. And yet they are not. They are barely regulated at all. I am not allowed to purchase more than one container of sudafed at a time, but I could settle for one container of sudafed, seventeen guns, and 5,000 rounds of ammunition. Our gun laws are obscenely poor.
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Strix Varia



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Strix is trying to make an abstruse point with regards to the qualifications for a car purchase versus the qualifications for car operations. It doesn't work out very well in my interpretation but for reasons I think should be a bit obvious, because in each case we're concerned about license to operate and common concerns of operation as well as ownership.


It is not an obtuse point and many posts here are ignoring that when it comes to the gun half of the equation. Many people here point out that it is easy to buy a gun. And if you have a clean police record, I agree with that. But buying a gun is NOT the same as using it. Buying a gun does not give you the right to be Rambo. If you get caught threatening a person with a gun or shooting it in city limits, you WILL be explaining it to the police. Probably you will be explaining it in a very uncomfortable police station right before you get fined and loose your gun.

The main point of comparison I have between guns and cars are the operators. Considering road rage that often goes unreported and careless auto accidents, Both cars and guns can potentially be very dangerous in the hands of irresponsible people.

We are debating the issue so naturally you will want to compare the most responsible drivers to the craziest gun owners you can. You will point out that large amounts of fertilizer can be tracked But forget to mention that all guns also have tracking numbers. You will ignore how many more people die from car accidents because so many more people own cars that the comparison isn't "fair" but then ask why the USA has so many more gun deaths than in countries a fraction of it's size. That is all fine because this is an internet debate and the winner of an internet debate is always the person who argues longest. And since I have several people arguing against me I know that I will not be me. So I will boil it down to this: "Yes, it is easy to get guns in America. But if you want to keep them you need to be responsible like the vast majority of gun owners are."
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I will boil it down to this: "Yes, it is easy to get guns in America. But if you want to keep them you need to be responsible like the vast majority of gun owners are."

i think when making the rules we should take into account just how many people can die between 'has purchased gun' and 'has had gun taken away.'
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are destined to lose this Internet Argument it will not be categorical fate because of the quantity of people arguing against you but rather because of that the cars 2 guns comparison has been made enough times that there are entire essays talking about why this should not be made in the abstruse way that it is often made, where in this case it has begun to apply

Cars guns ravens writing desks etc

Our car laws are generally if not wholly reasonable. Our guns are catastrophically unregulated for what they are, and what they are, is not a car
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