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Open letter to Tatsuya Ishida
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1881

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
Sam wrote:
A handful of people will frequent the forum that is safe for their anti-porn, anti sex work, trans exclusionary radfem ... and bother us less.


You're just assuming that the new forum's going to be trans exclusionary.

The handful of people meant here (KALXAK and TinT) sure are.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Nobody Important wrote:
Sam wrote:
A handful of people will frequent the forum that is safe for their anti-porn, anti sex work, trans exclusionary radfem ... and bother us less.


You're just assuming that the new forum's going to be trans exclusionary.

The handful of people meant here (KALXAK and TinT) sure are.


Yeah, just those two. Being a radical feminist and having negative opinions about trans people aren't mutually inclusive.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1881

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yeah. Not all radfem is trans exclusionary, I know. I think, though, that Sam was meaning those two, as Tatsuya seems to be alright with them. It's good that they can now have their own place in which their views regarding sex work and gender will be unchallenged and they won't misgender and disrespect the trans folk in this community.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then again, though, perhaps someone who hasn't showed up here yet will show up there and be against sex work but respectful to trans people. You never know. I know I won't be there to see it.
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Then again, though, perhaps someone who hasn't showed up here yet will show up there and be against sex work but respectful to trans people. You never know. I know I won't be there to see it.


I'm going to check out that forum for a while to see what kind of community forms there. We'll see what happens.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 533
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about joining the new site, but did some thinking.

Since it's explicitly "for people who like the message of my comic," which appears to be specifically "anti-pornography, anti-prostitution," and "favor[ing] the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one," well, I guess it's explicitly not for me. I mean, morally, I don't believe in prostitution, though I think the legal approach to it should be to make sure it doesn't involve coercion; as for porn, well, I've stated my beliefs earlier on this thread. I believe in some form of feminism (I used to say that I didn't classify myself as a feminist per se but then when I described how I thought society's laws should treat men and women, by golly, that turned out to be at least some form of feminism), but I don't think it counts as the kind of radical feminism Tat's new site endorses.

Therefore, if I were to join it, it would be trollish of me, and thus, I won't do it.

But I'm still very sad that Tat apparently doesn't want me, and people like me, there.

Honestly, this situation reminds me more than anything else of the kinds of religious discussion groups and boards I don't feel comfortable in. I'm a Christian, not of the fundamentalist/US Evangelical sort, and as mentioned before, gay. (O Seymour! We both love Hunky Jesus...) A lot (not all, thank God) of the religious discussion groups/forums out there assume that "Christian" = "fundamentalist." And if you aren't a fundamentalist, you're really not welcome, even if you identify as "Christian." This seems to me to be like this new board's intended approach to [one specific kind of] feminism.
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ChastMastr



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 533
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, US

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other parallel this situation (in the case of the comic, I mean) reminds me of is, as someone said on some other thread I can't find now (gah! My apologies!) Chick tracts. The "villains" are such straw men that there's no debate, no showing why they're wrong--they're just wrong, and so wrong that there's no point, I guess, in even doing more than mocking them as Obviously Evil Monsters. I don't know that Tat has done this deliberately, as some have suggested, but the whole "evil johnbies spout words about 'agency' but it's really just a manipulative ploy" thing really does feel like he's read the comments here and is just... well, mocking them, I guess? There's no discussion. There's no "here's why this is well-intentioned, but mistaken." It's just "catchphrases incoherent inhuman monsters spout, with no need of refutation by arguments or reason."

I know Tat is ... very private in his approach to anything about himself personally, so trying to figure out what he thinks, deep down, exclusively from the strip is sort of iffy at times, but... well, this comes across to me, as "Yes, I've read your responses, and this is what I think not only of your position, but of you." I've been trying really hard to not see it that way.

I've really loved this strip for so long, but I don't think I want to keep following it if the creator looks down on me. It's like, I feel weird reading Orson Scott Card because of his views of us gay people. There are extreme right-wing/anti-gay comics creators I feel that way about too. And I don't want to think of Tat as being in that category. Sad But it hurts, Tat.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1881

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cesario Rose wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Shrug. Well, at least it's better and more mature than banning the people in here. I do hope he doesn't shut this forum down. Maybe we should create a Discord group or something just in case?


I respectfully disagree. Does creating an echo chamber cultivate progress, or, indeed, does it really cause regress? Doesn't Reddit have this problem right now with certain subreddits? Or Facebook? Or *insert social media platform dedicated to political discussions.*

Not actually sure of what part of that quote you disagreed with, but I was suggesting the Discord group because, if this forum goes down, I'll miss talking to you people. I probably spent literal weeks' worth of time writing down posts like this one, and without meaning to be sappy, it has changed my opinion and views of the world in a significant way, and I consider a lot of the people here my friends.

I'm gonna think Tat wouldn't just shut down this forum after the new one gets some traction, but who knows.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tat:

Better late than never, thank you for finally changing the tag from the sex worker currently in Fuchsia's cave. I'd still love it if she had a name, but "Orphan girl" is a way better way of calling her than "Prostituted woman."
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2184
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChastMastr wrote:
I know Tat is ... very private in his approach to anything about himself personally, so trying to figure out what he thinks, deep down, exclusively from the strip is sort of iffy at times, but... well, this comes across to me, as "Yes, I've read your responses, and this is what I think not only of your position, but of you." I've been trying really hard to not see it that way.

Yeah. I won't be joining the new forum.

ChastMastr wrote:
I've really loved this strip for so long, but I don't think I want to keep following it if the creator looks down on me. It's like, I feel weird reading Orson Scott Card because of his views of us gay people. There are extreme right-wing/anti-gay comics creators I feel that way about too. And I don't want to think of Tat as being in that category. :( But it hurts, Tat.

Yeah. Well, turns out there are other writes so I ditched Orson Scott Card along with the "Golden Era"-misogynist sf writers. I'd really rather not ditch Tat, though :-(
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KALXAK wrote:
why do you people always come up with the most ironic analogies? I wonder why are yall still here to till very day lol \o

You know, there's a separate thread for drunk posting, that's what I use when I'm not able to make much sense. But hey, I never said I was leaving and then didn't follow through. In fact, I rarely announce I'm leaving, I just leave. But you keep staying. You've got your own place now, surely now you can leave us be? As you have announced, oh, three, four times? Five? I didn't keep track.
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Yorick



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 12330
Location: Laganglia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

(and of course, your mouse).


mouse? what mouse?
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11363

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:
Sam wrote:
A handful of people will frequent the forum that is safe for their anti-porn, anti sex work, trans exclusionary radfem ... and bother us less.


You're just assuming that the new forum's going to be trans exclusionary. The anti-porn and anti-prostitution stance doesn't necessitate transphobia.


no, but the people who it's being made for almost assure it, at present.

i chose my words carefully: it's a place that will 'be safe' for their anti-porn, anti sex work, trans exclusionary radfem. tatsuya's accommodations and his interjection were precisely on behalf of the forum's two most notorious and noteworthy TERFs, and comes with a complete lack of concern at their trans exclusionary rhetoric, so with the available data (which is always limited) it's easy to presume right now that they'll probably be permitted to say many trans exclusionary things in the other forum.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he seems to be taking an explicit stance on the new forum:
Tatsuya Ishida wrote:
So you recognize the sex industry is inherently misogynistic and harmful and support the Nordic/abolitionist model?


admittedly, not on trans people, but it seems to indicate he sees the sex industry as solely about female prostitutes.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and i should say, i'm one of the people who has found this forum tremendously instructive. i've learned a lot about people that i probably never would have associated with in real life - some because i just wouldn't have encountered them, and some because i had been taught they were people to be feared. i have definitely broadened my perspectives as well as my knowledge base. i am grateful that this forum has been a place that a lot of people have felt they could speak their truths in, and i am thankful for the people who had the courage to do that.

and yeah, i would miss a lot of you if i couldn't talk to you here.
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