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10 May 2018: Better Programming 10
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
Posts: 1999
Location: at your mom's house

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalxak, you see, is not mad or owned. she's laughing, actually
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I must go to the store to get butter and cheese.

Tengo que ir a la tienda a comprar mantequilla y queso.
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Homeslice



Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 444
Location: In your fridge

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Eiden and Leohan for the explanations and sources.
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KALXAK
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KALXAK wrote:

Mh... Alright, I'll bite, please explain the picture in the context of a group that wishes for prostitution to be a legitimized, regulated profession that one can enter by choice but not by force.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More to the point, I think we are coming at the problem from different angles.

Here are some axioms I think we all agree on:
We want people to be safe.
Women who work in sex work are often at risk.
Women are objectified and demeaned in a patriarchal society.
The conditions that pressure people into selling sex as a service are deplorable, and we should work to reduce the amount of people for whom sex trade is a survival tool.

Where I think we have some manner of disagreement:
Legalization and regulation create a (safer/more dangerous) environment for sex workers.
Sex work (is/is not) inherently degrading and abusive.
Women (have/lack) agency over their bodies when performing (some/all) kinds of sex trade.
(Some/No) women would voluntarily enter the sex trade, given proper alternatives.

I think some of these viewpoints can be contested with proof, others are harder to debate.

This post is more meant to make sure we understand where we all are on the issue, not to promote any particular viewpoint. Call out if I have anything wrong. I think if we at least feel understood, we can start working to address some of our differences constructively.
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Draculaura



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
Posts: 1999
Location: at your mom's house

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa you think we're all liberal feminists, fucking marvelous
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I must go to the store to get butter and cheese.

Tengo que ir a la tienda a comprar mantequilla y queso.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:
More to the point, I think we are coming at the problem from different angles.

Here are some axioms I think we all agree on:
We want people to be safe.
Women who work in sex work are often at risk.
Women are objectified and demeaned in a patriarchal society.
The conditions that pressure people into selling sex as a service are deplorable, and we should work to reduce the amount of people for whom sex trade is a survival tool.

Where I think we have some manner of disagreement:
Legalization and regulation create a (safer/more dangerous) environment for sex workers.
Sex work (is/is not) inherently degrading and abusive.
Women (have/lack) agency over their bodies when performing (some/all) kinds of sex trade.
(Some/No) women would voluntarily enter the sex trade, given proper alternatives.

I think some of these viewpoints can be contested with proof, others are harder to debate.

This post is more meant to make sure we understand where we all are on the issue, not to promote any particular viewpoint. Call out if I have anything wrong. I think if we at least feel understood, we can start working to address some of our differences constructively.

This post is outright fantastic. Bravo. Whether KALXAK and/or TinT are willing to address the true nature of the debate and argue in a logical manner after it has so clearly been laid out remains to be seen, but this should be the best starting point possible.

Here's for anyone saying that this forum doesn't welcome newcomers: This right here is amazing and I already have a very high opinion of Zilla.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the best part of it: There was absolutely no bias in that post, so you can't tell me I welcome her opinion because of her beliefs.
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Strix Varia



Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 237
Location: State of confusion

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caimsen wrote:

By the Way, what would be the female Version of a "John"?


A Jane.

John Doe is a man who can't or doesn't want to be identified.
Jane Doe is the female version.
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Vixine



Joined: 12 Jan 2016
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:
More to the point, I think we are coming at the problem from different angles.

Here are some axioms I think we all agree on:
We want people to be safe.
Women who work in sex work are often at risk.
Women are objectified and demeaned in a patriarchal society.
The conditions that pressure people into selling sex as a service are deplorable, and we should work to reduce the amount of people for whom sex trade is a survival tool.

Where I think we have some manner of disagreement:
Legalization and regulation create a (safer/more dangerous) environment for sex workers.
Sex work (is/is not) inherently degrading and abusive.
Women (have/lack) agency over their bodies when performing (some/all) kinds of sex trade.
(Some/No) women would voluntarily enter the sex trade, given proper alternatives.

I think some of these viewpoints can be contested with proof, others are harder to debate.

This post is more meant to make sure we understand where we all are on the issue, not to promote any particular viewpoint. Call out if I have anything wrong. I think if we at least feel understood, we can start working to address some of our differences constructively.


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Vancore



Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That last panel reminded me of my Mom and her flicks. Made me smile.
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:

Here are some axioms I think we all agree on:
We want people to be safe.
Women who work in sex work are often at risk.
Women are objectified and demeaned in a patriarchal society.
The conditions that pressure people into selling sex as a service are deplorable, and we should work to reduce the amount of people for whom sex trade is a survival tool.


Agree, other than the use of the term "sex work", which is a euphemism that was successfully pushed by the trafficking and exploitation industry for the purpose of clouding the issue by implying it's just like any other employment, as well as conflating prostitution, pornography, exhibitionism, and various other issues as an impediment to analysis and policy work.

Zilla wrote:

Where I think we have some manner of disagreement:
Legalization and regulation create a (safer/more dangerous) environment for sex workers.
Sex work (is/is not) inherently degrading and abusive.
Women (have/lack) agency over their bodies when performing (some/all) kinds of sex trade.
(Some/No) women would voluntarily enter the sex trade, given proper alternatives.


1) The "legalization" item doesn't say what it's supposed to be safer/more dangerous than. Full criminalization? Reduced penalty decriminalization? Nordic model decriminalization?

2) I'd hope there is no disagreement that women and girls have their agency of body violated in at least "(some) kinds of sex trade."

3) I don't think the "no women would voluntarily enter sex trade" question is the right one. The issue is: do we legalize the exploitation of women via prostitution to make things easier on the tiny minority of women who enter and remain in it voluntarily at the huge expense of a) women and girls who entered but not voluntarily, and b) those who entered voluntarily but are now involuntarily being forced to continue, and c) women and girls who are not being prostituted but who are harmed by the legal sanctioning of objectification and male entitlement.
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HKVeteran



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 108
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Agree, other than the use of the term "sex work", which is a euphemism that was successfully pushed by the trafficking and exploitation industry for the purpose of clouding the issue by implying it's just like any other employment, as well as conflating prostitution, pornography, exhibitionism, and various other issues as an impediment to analysis and policy work.


You know, reading that, I can't help but feel like you are doing the exact same thing from the opposite direction.

I feel like you are intentionally confusing the debate by lumping all the media that depicts sex as "exploitation" and occupations (or hobbies in some cases) involving sex as "trafficking".

I feel that way because in another thread you posted this:

Quote:
And of course we'll get the "listen to sex workers" propaganda from the Aunt Lydia's and other collaborators and useful idiots. Sure, if you confine yourself to patriarchy approved and amplified voices, you'll hear how forced abuse from a stream of random men is totes empowering.


That is blatantly changing facts to fit you're own theory, and a callously dismissive hand wave of actual people's stories.
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, that's all fair critique on that. Point 3, I think, that you bring up is one that we also agree on. I think the point of contention isn't about wanting to throw those coerced into sex trade under the bus so privileged sex workers can work with less stigma. Rather, there's a question about whether that's a trade off that is happening at all, or whether these policies will end up making things safer and reduce the amount of coerced participants. The contention is that legalization makes things safer in a similar way to Portugal treating it's drug problem by focusing on rehabilitation instead of punishment. By legalizing and regulating, the actual crimes are said to be easier to prosecute.

I believe your side of the argument has been that this is not the effect, that instead, it will create incentives for traffickers and allow them to escape punishment by putting up a sanctioned and legitimate front.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that, and I can't say I've really seen a direct counterargument to that.
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HKVeteran wrote:

That is blatantly changing facts to fit you're own theory, and a callously dismissive hand wave of actual people's stories.


How is that changing facts? The people pushing for full legalization love trotting out the unicorns, the token escort making a lot of money in an unusually safe network (though more often the person turns out to be someone now in a "management" position and profiting off the exploitation of others). So when they say "listen to sex workers", they're saying "listen to these sex workers we've cherry picked" or "listen to my one friend who's a sex worker, I'm sure everyone else has the same experience as her".

Instead, I'll actually "listen to sex workers": the 89% of prostituted women who want to escape.
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