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June 15, 2018: Repair 13
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
i often went by "stitcher" when i sewed professionally.

Heh. That's funny because in Dutch, the word for "to stitch" is the same as for "choking" (passively). Oh, and it sounds the same as one of those adhesive pictures :-)
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, that might be a hard point for me to understand because my language (Spanish) differentiates gender in almost ever substantive. It's too ingrained in the language, so I have a hard time seeing words like "waitress" as sexist. The plural 'die' in German I did find a little confusing, as well as the formal 'Sie', which funnily enough is shared in Italian ('Lei' is both 'she' and a formal way of saying 'you').

Something interesting, though. Some professions and functions are, as a matter of fact, gender neutral in Spanish. Most (if not all) of them end in 'nte'. Like agente (agent), asistente (assistant) or ayudante (helper). However, from 10 and until 2 years ago we had a woman president that insisted on being called 'presidenta' instead of 'presidente' (most female forms of substantives end with A.) A surprising amount of people indulged her regarding that.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
The plural 'die' in German I did find a little confusing, as well as the formal 'Sie', which funnily enough is shared in Italian ('Lei' is both 'she' and a formal way of saying 'you').

Same in Dutch! "Zij" means both she and they. I wonder why that is?

Leohan wrote:
Something interesting, though. Some professions and functions are, as a matter of fact, gender neutral in Spanish. Most (if not all) of them end in 'nte'. Like agente (agent), asistente (assistant) or ayudante (helper). However, from 10 and until 2 years ago we had a woman president that insisted on being called 'presidenta' instead of 'presidente' (most female forms of substantives end with A.) A surprising amount of people indulged her regarding that.

... "indulged"?
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
... "indulged"?

Isn't that the right word? I mean, I, myself, found it kind of cringy that people were being deliberately incorrect, grammatically, because she wanted that. And it's not like there was a male 'presidento' to counter it. You know what they say, though, language shifts, and people in Argentina seem to have gotten so used to 'presidenta' that I don't know if it's even considered bad grammar at this point.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
Irinei wrote:
Samsally wrote:
women are human. females are anyfuckingthing that has a uterus.

i can see where it specifically harms trans women in its weirdly pointed exclusion of them, but this is an all woman thing as well because reducing anyone to their reproductive organs dehumanizing.

plus its only ever really used in a derogatory way.


Ah, I had never considered it in that way. I think I have used the term before, but never with derogatory or dehumanizing intent. I had always considered "females" interchangeable with "women and girls". But I can see where some people might take offense. Thanks for the explanation.

Don't believe 'em though. You have a nation issued ID card, what does it say? "M" and "F" referring to "MALE" and "FEMALE".

There's nothing dehumanizing about defining sex.

Your gender is male or female (other choices aren't allowed yet) but you aren't. You are a male or female person. You aren't a male or a female.


Not even sure if I should go so deep in "grammar territory" but the difference is that you're not "a male", but still, you are "male".

You specifically maybe not, but I think you get the point.
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KALXAK



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: June 15, 2018: Repair 13 Reply with quote

Irinei wrote:


No Homers.


more like No Nigels tbh.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
mouse wrote:
there are still a few where women seem to be welded into the job, like seamstress (was there ever a seamer?)

Isn't that called a tailor, of which there is no female form? Something tells me that a tailor is valued higher than a seamstress.


exactly. tailors are seen as a different bird entirely than seamstresses.

i guess a dressmaker might rank up with a tailor. can't remember if they were ever called 'tailoresses'.
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
Irinei wrote:
Samsally wrote:
women are human. females are anyfuckingthing that has a uterus.

i can see where it specifically harms trans women in its weirdly pointed exclusion of them, but this is an all woman thing as well because reducing anyone to their reproductive organs dehumanizing.

plus its only ever really used in a derogatory way.


Ah, I had never considered it in that way. I think I have used the term before, but never with derogatory or dehumanizing intent. I had always considered "females" interchangeable with "women and girls". But I can see where some people might take offense. Thanks for the explanation.

Don't believe 'em though. You have a nation issued ID card, what does it say? "M" and "F" referring to "MALE" and "FEMALE".

There's nothing dehumanizing about defining sex.

Your gender is male or female (other choices aren't allowed yet) but you aren't. You are a male or female person. You aren't a male or a female.


Not even sure if I should go so deep in "grammar territory" but the difference is that you're not "a male", but still, you are "male".

You specifically maybe not, but I think you get the point.

Yes. That was my point. It's a vast difference.
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Caimsen



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Taemon wrote:
... "indulged"?

Isn't that the right word? I mean, I, myself, found it kind of cringy that people were being deliberately incorrect, grammatically, because she wanted that. And it's not like there was a male 'presidento' to counter it. You know what they say, though, language shifts, and people in Argentina seem to have gotten so used to 'presidenta' that I don't know if it's even considered bad grammar at this point.


Same in Austria. In most Cases it was just a Titel and everybody just said Mr Doctor or Ms Doctor. On the other Hand, i havent expirenced that somebody wanted to be called by the female Version of it until now. Same goes for Magister (something simular to a Bachelor).
The more i think about it, nobody that i know really cares about it anyway and most are just annoyed by the Topic. ala "not again".
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Taemon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Taemon wrote:
... "indulged"?

Isn't that the right word?

It, er, seems kinda condescending.
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Yorick



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Samsally wrote:
i often went by "stitcher" when i sewed professionally.

Heh. That's funny because in Dutch, the word for "to stitch" is the same as for "choking" (passively). Oh, and it sounds the same as one of those adhesive pictures Smile


what's the title of Disney's "Lilo and Stitch" in Dutch countries?
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Taemon wrote:
... "indulged"?

Isn't that the right word?

It, er, seems kinda condescending.

Shrug. Well, there's probably another word to express what I meant, perhaps, it just doesn't come to mind. Regardless of my (extremely negative) opinion about my prior president, no condescension was meant.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm trying to think of another way to express this, but at the moment all i can think of is "they humored her by doing it" which is also a little condescending. the final idea is, they did it more or less because she insisted on it and they were willing to give in just to make her happy (at least, that's what is sounds like). i guess the issue is whether you see her insistence as somewhat childish, in which case a somewhat condescending word is appropriate. and whether it is childish depends to a large extent on how much Argentinian women insist on a gendered word to describe their professions - if it was just her, then it was .... well, perhaps 'idiosyncratic' is a better word.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was indeed just her. Nobody has ever asked to be called an 'agenta' or 'asistenta'. In fact, that's the kind of examples people give when pointing out how ridiculous it is.

And... Childish isn't the right word. Childish implies petulance and lack of further intent. It was most certainly a strategy to put more focus into her being a woman, the first one in Argentina to be democratically elected (The other was a vice president that took charge after her husband, the president, died), in order to better appeal towards feminists.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, ok, so definitely targeted with a personal goal in mind. in which case i vote that treating it with condescension is actually pretty mild.

then again, it's been a rough day, maybe i'm just tetchy.


Sinfest: come for the argument, stay for the vocabulary enhancement.
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