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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:

The law has apparently not been used in this case, but sex with a 14 year old is still illegal in sweden and most of the world. I bring this up because of the reasoning behind the law: that 14 year olds can not give consent. You still haven't responded to this view.


I don't need to. I don't know the reasoning and the reasoning is immaterial in this case, as the law does not apply to them.

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
People mature at different rates, and it may be possible for a fourteen year old to have matured enough to give informed consent.


Do you believe Him's girl to not fall under this "matured enough" exception, then?

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Perhaps, but it gives you a nice entry point into explaining to me why most people are wrong, what the age of consent should be and whether exceptions can be made. Your moral view in short.


I cannot generalize. It depends on the individual, of course.
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrew wrote:

On this forum? No, no it wouldn't.


As I said, I can only inform of inappropriate behavior. I of course cannot enforce anything.

andrew wrote:
Nope. What part of the sentence it appears in indicates it's mine?


The fact that you posted it? I feel it is a reasonable assumption.
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
No Sparowhawk, you don't get a pass either. Being right and proud of it doesn't get you friends, especially when "meeting" them for the first time.


Agreed. Were that my goal I would have moderated my approach. I know I win no friends here. Do I get brownie points for keeping your color in all my quotes though? Smile

Lasairfiona wrote:
We discuss a lot of things here and outrage and discust is part of that. Make your point calmly and nicely. Would you start yelling at people and telling them they were wrong in a beligerent manner if you met them face to face? The same applies on the internet.


Hm. I feel I've been calm over all, I just come across as strong.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9702
Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you aren't out to win friends, you won't win your arguement either. You can't come off like that and expect to change people's minds especially if they don't know you! This isn't a newbie vs oldbie arguement, it is a fact. Unless one is supremely openminded (which is rare even o nthis community), a good point is going to be completely ignored if the tone is wrong. Oh, and no one can understand your tone as anything other than antagonistic and self rightous because no one has had interaction with you before.

Mind you, I don't think you could have won friends in this thread regardless of how you handled it (it is a tough topic) but this is winning you enemies.

::gives a few brownie points::

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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I'm sorry that my emotional and gut reaction that stems from bad personal experiences doesnt meet your standard of logic. By all means use your standard of logic as to why I or anyone here should care about the opinions of someone who solely registered to the forum to extend an argument about someone he admittedly has no experience with, and no knowledge of the background the community has with him, much less the manner in which I used to treat his posting of his problems.


I've seen how has been treated, and I base my opinion off of that. I don't have to personally know or like Him, I don't have to personally know or like you. Your personal prejudices are just that, personal. To attack another based on your personal prejudices, even if they are based on your negative experiences, is baseless.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
You have yet to expose why I should care what you think, or change my behavior to suit someone I dont know, and frankly could give two shits about. Hell I care more about what HIM thinks, hence my offer of a compromise.


I certainly cannot enforce anything against you. I can only inform you that you acted in a very inappropriate manner.
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
If you aren't out to win friends, you won't win your arguement either. You can't come off like that and expect to change people's minds especially if they don't know you! This isn't a newbie vs oldbie arguement, it is a fact. Unless one is supremely openminded (which is rare even o nthis community), a good point is going to be completely ignored if the tone is wrong. Oh, and no one can understand your tone as anything other than antagonistic and self rightous because no one has had interaction with you before.

Mind you, I don't think you could have won friends in this thread regardless of how you handled it (it is a tough topic) but this is winning you enemies.

::gives a few brownie points::


Then so be it. Attempting to win friends and gradually show them that their attitude and viewpoints are bigotted would take more time than I am willing to commit.

Thank you for the brownie points Smile
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Teh Digital Dragon



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1888
Location: THE WORLD OF LARNING.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sparrowhawk wrote:
Teh Digital Dragon wrote:

The law has apparently not been used in this case, but sex with a 14 year old is still illegal in sweden and most of the world. I bring this up because of the reasoning behind the law: that 14 year olds can not give consent. You still haven't responded to this view.


I don't need to. I don't know the reasoning and the reasoning is immaterial in this case, as the law does not apply to them.

The law does apply to them, it's just that apparently no one's going to actually make a case. And you know the reasoning behind the law, even if only because I just told you.

Sparrowhawk wrote:
Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
People mature at different rates, and it may be possible for a fourteen year old to have matured enough to give informed consent.


Do you believe Him's girl to not fall under this "matured enough" exception, then?

I couldn't say, I don't know her. That's why the age of consent exists, because it's impossible for outsiders to know who the exceptions are.

Sparrowhawk wrote:
Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
Perhaps, but it gives you a nice entry point into explaining to me why most people are wrong, what the age of consent should be and whether exceptions can be made. Your moral view in short.


I cannot generalize. It depends on the individual, of course.

What depends?

I want to hear your view on the issue of the age of consent in general, what moral exceptions you think there are and whether legal ones can be made. You've dismissed the majority view, but seem unwilling to give your own or even explain why.
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Teh Digital Dragon



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got an essay to go write, so feel free to take your time deciding what your opinion is.
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:

The law does apply to them, it's just that apparently no one's going to actually make a case. And you know the reasoning behind the law, even if only because I just told you.


Apologies, I think I missed the reasoning you posted. Could you repeat it?

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
I couldn't say, I don't know her. That's why the age of consent exists, because it's impossible for outsiders to know who the exceptions are.


Agreed. Why, then, the animosity toward Him's relationship? Could it not be that she is "mature enough" (whatever that entails). You do not know, so how and why do you judge negatively. Why do you not trust those involved to judge this situation?

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
What depends?


What I believe the moral "age of consent" would be. It would depend on the individual whether I believe them to be ready for sex.

Teh Digital Dragon wrote:
I want to hear your view on the issue of the age of consent in general, what moral exceptions you think there are and whether legal ones can be made. You've dismissed the majority view, but seem unwilling to give your own or even explain why.


I could not generalize. It would depend on the individual. I see no reason for the age to be 18, I see no reason for it to be 16. Then again, I see no reason for it not to be fixed at those ages, as I do feel there should be an age below which sex is inappropriate, but that would not be a hard and fast rule.

In general, I believe relationships as Him's is described should be the exception. Sexually mature, free of coersion or abuse, no manipulation of authority, and consensual.
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: I have to be somewhere? ::runs around frantically::

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sparrowhawk wrote:
What I believe the moral "age of consent" would be. It would depend on the individual whether I believe them to be ready for sex.

Wait, wait, you get to decide?!?

If you can think of a system that is repeatable and has a high rate of success than I am all for it but just saying that you think it is okay doesn't mean squat. What credentials do you have?

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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:

Wait, wait, you get to decide?!?


I was asked my personal opinion. At least, I think I was.

Lasairfiona wrote:

If you can think of a system that is repeatable and has a high rate of success than I am all for it but just saying that you think it is okay doesn't mean squat. What credentials do you have?


None. I wouldn't be able to generalize because I don't know all situations.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sparrowhawk wrote:
None. I wouldn't be able to generalize because I don't know all situations.

Large groups aren't capable of interviewing everyone to decide when they are mature enough to handle sex and its consequences. I wish there was a system that could better determine the "age of consent" but age laws are all that we have because no one can think of anything better.

I appreciate the criticism of the age of consent laws as inadequate but we need to think of something better instead of just sitting around and bitching. We can't prove anything other than age right now.

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Marik



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 1234

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: s'mores Reply with quote

Quote:
Ok. It seems you are saying that the issue is not the age difference between the two, but is instead a question of whether Him is mature enough to handle a new relationship in general. I wouldn't know, and care little for the answer. This does not, however, explain or excuse the attacks for referencing his sex life or the demand that Him never mentions his relationship.


Even if we are pretending at conveinece that societal mores are 'immaterial' in regards to this issue, people are allowed to disagree with his relationship openly!

This is of paramount importance since a wide range of people on the forum have used their Him experience to conclude negatively on the subject of Him's maturity or the appropriateness of his having a 14 year old girlfriend.
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Xilonen



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 465
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Sparrowhawk wrote:
What I believe the moral "age of consent" would be. It would depend on the individual whether I believe them to be ready for sex.

Wait, wait, you get to decide?!?

If you can think of a system that is repeatable and has a high rate of success than I am all for it but just saying that you think it is okay doesn't mean squat. What credentials do you have?


i don't think he/she/newbie is arguing against the current system, but is just arguing for what happened in this particular case - the social services came and investigated the situation, and based on the particulars decided that it was not prudent to enforce the law in this case.

i personally agree, and would rather leave the debate of whether or not the relationship is abusive to those authorities and move it off the forum here. no one here can make a claim for Him and his girlfriend as to whether or not they are mature enough to engage in a sexual relationship, but i'll throw my lot in with the investigators who determined that they were and that it was neither abusive nor coersive.

as for those (admittedly) arguing based on their own prejudice, the responsibility to keep that prejudice in check rests entirely within you. everyone here has the right to say what they think, but sometimes it's better for everyone to keep what you think to yourself.

basically - for the love of god, let it die. Rolling Eyes
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona
Lasairfiona wrote:

I wish there was a system that could better determine the "age of consent" but age laws are all that we have because no one can think of anything better.


Agreed. I view the laws as tools. The real determining factor, imo, is as I stated. Generally: being sexually mature, free of coersion or abuse, no manipulation of authority, and consensual. Age of consent laws give us a means to stop relationships that are abusive in some way.

Marik
Marik wrote:

Even if we are pretending at conveinece that societal mores are 'immaterial' in regards to this issue, people are allowed to disagree with his relationship openly!


Well, yes, nothing can stop them. I am questioning the appropriateness of the criticism of this relationship. Given the facts of Him's relationship, many of the criticisms I've seen are not appropriate imo. They are based on personal prejudice and biggotry, and I am offended that a apparently loving relationship is being attacked on those grounds.

Marik wrote:
This is of paramount importance since a wide range of people on the forum have used their Him experience to conclude negatively on the subject of Him's maturity or the appropriateness of his having a 14 year old girlfriend.


The attacks I've seen have questioned Him's maturity only as related to getting his g/f pregnant. He has accepted responsibility for that mistake. Continued harping upon that seems more of a means of attack than an actual concern.

Xilonen
Xilonen wrote:
i personally agree, and would rather leave the debate of whether or not the relationship is abusive to those authorities and move it off the forum here. no one here can make a claim for Him and his girlfriend as to whether or not they are mature enough to engage in a sexual relationship, but i'll throw my lot in with the investigators who determined that they were and that it was neither abusive nor coersive


I saw few rise in defense of Him when, I felt, he was being bashed about this relationship unfairly. I'm happy to see that apparently many here agree with me. I've expressed my point and it was understood, so I'm content to let it go.
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