June 11, 2019: Wokeman Signal

Talk about the comic
GothHick
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:09 am

Re: All Lives Matter

Post by GothHick » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:36 am

Foxgloves wrote:Don't "All Lives Matter" at feminists. We're not here to save everybody. We're here to liberate women.
Heya Foxgloves! Just a quiet note of appreciation for how you stayed focused despite an attempt to derail. Seeing trolls sucker people into arguments is a frustration of mine and I had to say 'well done.'

The following two cents is only offered because I want to help keep your message as strong as possible. Not trying to derail and I'm quite aware of the irony of pointing this out in light of my opening comment. :roll:
Foxgloves wrote:But women are the only movement who are not allowed to center themselves, no, we have to take care of everybody else, too. You would never say this to a Black-Lives-Matter person. Don't say this to women either.
This confused me because people do troll Black Lives Matter supporters exactly this way, which is why you were able to effectively reference "All Lives Matter" at the start.

Trolls move goalposts on their targets all the time because it's an easy fallacious argument.

Don't get me wrong - people shouldn't say such things, but as they do so claiming that women are the only movement not allowed to center themselves weakens your overall message ( at least to me, YMMV ).

Have a great day!

User avatar
Foxgloves
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Germany

Re: All Lives Matter

Post by Foxgloves » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:19 am

GothHick wrote:
Foxgloves wrote:Don't "All Lives Matter" at feminists. We're not here to save everybody. We're here to liberate women.
Heya Foxgloves! Just a quiet note of appreciation for how you stayed focused despite an attempt to derail. Seeing trolls sucker people into arguments is a frustration of mine and I had to say 'well done.'

The following two cents is only offered because I want to help keep your message as strong as possible. Not trying to derail and I'm quite aware of the irony of pointing this out in light of my opening comment. :roll:
Foxgloves wrote:But women are the only movement who are not allowed to center themselves, no, we have to take care of everybody else, too. You would never say this to a Black-Lives-Matter person. Don't say this to women either.
This confused me because people do troll Black Lives Matter supporters exactly this way, which is why you were able to effectively reference "All Lives Matter" at the start.

Trolls move goalposts on their targets all the time because it's an easy fallacious argument.

Don't get me wrong - people shouldn't say such things, but as they do so claiming that women are the only movement not allowed to center themselves weakens your overall message ( at least to me, YMMV ).

Have a great day!
Obvs, people badger other activists groups to expand their scope. It's just usually not leftists doing that. I should clarify: When it comes to leftists, feminists are the only group routinely badgered to advocate for everyone.

User avatar
October
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:48 am
Location: Eastern USA

Post by October » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:18 pm

Foxgloves wrote:Shouldn't black liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't gay liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't trans liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't disabled liberation focus on all people who oppress people?

The answers are: No. No. No. And No.
That, friend, was wonderfully and succinctly done. I can't offer enough applause. Thank you for that.
"Because as we all know... there is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself!" -Hannah Gadsby

User avatar
jayne
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am

Re: All Lives Matter

Post by jayne » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:47 pm

Foxgloves wrote:
jayne wrote:Lets boil it down to this... does anyone disagree with this statement?

Shouldn't radical feminism focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't black liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't gay liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't trans liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't disabled liberation focus on all people who oppress people?

The answers are: No. No. No. And No.

Don't "All Lives Matter" at feminists. We're not here to save everybody. We're here to liberate women. But women are the only movement who are not allowed to center themselves, no, we have to take care of everybody else, too - according to many leftists. No leftist would ever say this to a Black-Lives-Matter person. Don't say this to women either.
I disagree and I'm not saying feminists have to do anything at all. I think anyone who has been oppressed should fight oppression regardless of if it affects them personally. This is ultimately about equality and everyone should fight for that.

"All lives matter" negates the message of "Black Lives Matter" which actually means "Black lives matter equally to other lives so stop killing black people as if their lives matter less than everyone else"

If you think I'm trying to negate "women are equal to men", there has been a miscommunication.

User avatar
jayne
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:30 am

Post by jayne » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:51 pm

"Shouldn't group X focus on all people who oppress people? "
"No, group x should focus on all people who oppress group x"

This seems to be what you're saying.

Do trans people oppress women? Should trans people be oppressed by women?

Should radical feminism focus on all people who oppress women?

Reminder, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm respectfully asking questions because this subject interests me.

Bangaren
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:19 pm

Re: All Lives Matter

Post by Bangaren » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:53 pm

Foxgloves wrote:
jayne wrote:Lets boil it down to this... does anyone disagree with this statement?

Shouldn't radical feminism focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't black liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't gay liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't trans liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't disabled liberation focus on all people who oppress people?

The answers are: No. No. No. And No.

Don't "All Lives Matter" at feminists. We're not here to save everybody. We're here to liberate women. But women are the only movement who are not allowed to center themselves, no, we have to take care of everybody else, too - according to many leftists. No leftist would ever say this to a Black-Lives-Matter person. Don't say this to women either.
No one's asking feminists to save everybody. That's not what's being asked here. It's simply asking feminists to treat trans people with the same basic dignity and respect they demand for themselves; Not degrading them because of gender dysphoria.

It's simple to treat people with respect. It's a lot more effort to degrade or insult them, tell them what they are and aren't, put them into categories, etc.

And "biological sex" isn't the sole determining factor in gender identity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... fferences/

The study featured in this article goes into detail about how people who are trans, may have the biological makeup of one gender, but when they look at their brain scans, they resemble brains of the opposite gender.

The simplest way I personally think of it, is that there are three aspect to each person. Biological gender, gender identity, and sexuality. Each distinct, and none dependent on the other. Just like it's not anyone's place to say how men or women should behave based on their gender, who they love, how they live their life, etc, it's not anyone place to tell another person what their gender identity is or what their sexual preferences should be.

User avatar
Z6IIAB
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:21 am
Location: Rogue

Re: All Lives Matter

Post by Z6IIAB » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:24 pm

Bangaren wrote:
Foxgloves wrote:
jayne wrote:Lets boil it down to this... does anyone disagree with this statement?

Shouldn't radical feminism focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't black liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't gay liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't trans liberation focus on all people who oppress people?
Shouldn't disabled liberation focus on all people who oppress people?

The answers are: No. No. No. And No.

Don't "All Lives Matter" at feminists. We're not here to save everybody. We're here to liberate women. But women are the only movement who are not allowed to center themselves, no, we have to take care of everybody else, too - according to many leftists. No leftist would ever say this to a Black-Lives-Matter person. Don't say this to women either.
No one's asking feminists to save everybody. That's not what's being asked here. It's simply asking feminists to treat trans people with the same basic dignity and respect they demand for themselves; Not degrading them because of gender dysphoria.

It's simple to treat people with respect. It's a lot more effort to degrade or insult them, tell them what they are and aren't, put them into categories, etc.

And "biological sex" isn't the sole determining factor in gender identity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... fferences/

The study featured in this article goes into detail about how people who are trans, may have the biological makeup of one gender, but when they look at their brain scans, they resemble brains of the opposite gender.

The simplest way I personally think of it, is that there are three aspect to each person. Biological gender, gender identity, and sexuality. Each distinct, and none dependent on the other. Just like it's not anyone's place to say how men or women should behave based on their gender, who they love, how they live their life, etc, it's not anyone place to tell another person what their gender identity is or what their sexual preferences should be.
oh please, go blow a ballon

Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains

and btw: that's a Nature's article. Read and weep.
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

FerroMancer
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:25 pm
Location: NY, USA

Post by FerroMancer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:58 pm

Foxgloves wrote:No feminist ever said every woman can get pregnant. We said: Only women can get pregnant.
So, it sounds like you're saying that Transwomen aren't women, and that Transmen that haven't gotten reassignment surgery still are. Is that actually what you're saying? Because I'm having trouble figuring out how you're supportive of transpeople without giving them the association of their proper gender. It sounds like you're a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, or TERF as it's called. Me, I prefer identifying said group with the term FART: Feminism-Appropriating Radical Transphobe.

Oh, you provide a link to a study about gender identification in the brain. *reads* I see, it's a study of 48 MRIs. That's cute.

Here's a "small" study using a paltry 150 people by Endocrinology experts that says exactly the opposite. Here's the news article written about it. Here's a sample:
Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018.
And to answer the question posed of "where in this comic strip are trans people being attack?", it's in the third panel. The "villain" is given several statements associated with her.
  • "She tweets out Mad Fem memes" That's a good thing, that's the twist.
    "Outs sex buyers" That's a good thing, that's the twist.
    "Says Women Don't Have Penises" That's a bad position, that's the problem.
And clearly, I'm not the only person in this group that says that it looks that way. I just hope that future comics pull the message back from this brink.

User avatar
Foxgloves
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Germany

Big mean TERF over here

Post by Foxgloves » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:16 am

I literally have studied who commits violence against transwomen, even though they are not the focus of my activism, and I've raised awareness about it. I've raised awareness about dysphoria, too, and I even agree that in severe cases transition is the best option.

But I'm a hateful TERF because I reject the idea that woman is an internal sense of self or simply an aversion to having a male body or some tendency towards a certain brain structure.

I will always be an ally to trans people who loose housing or jobs or are beaten up because they are gender non conforming or percieved as homosexual. But I will not be gaslit or bullied into saying that women are not an objective biological and consequent social reality, or that lesbians can have and desire penises (that's conversion therapy, fuck off with that), or that women and girls who at their most vunerable (naked and/or traumatized) don't deserve a space to themselves, or that kids who play with the wrong toys need to see a doctor to check if they have "girl brain" or "boy brain" in the "wrong body" (literally every story of a "trans child" involves "wrong" clothing or toy prefrences. Never never will get behind that sexist homophobic bullshit.). I will not justify this position. It's been elaboratly explained a million times by women online.

Go ahead and call me a TERF, a transphobe, a bigot, a hater, a nazi. I've heard it all. While you give women shit for asserting our boundaries, you ignore the men actually killing and raping or pimping transwomen.

Applause.

You are all fantastic allies. Hope you feel really good about yourself ignoring those doing the most severe harm to the people you wanna help and pushing away all those who would be your allies, if only you had some basic respect for what it means to be born, grow up and live in a female body.

And of course, ya'll can't even define what the new progressive definition of woman is. You wanna tell me what a woman is, but can't even put into words this mystery category. What's next - are you gonna tell me - like half the woke bros on Twitter - that it is so incredibly difficult to tell a person's sex? Kinda fascinating how men for thousands of years knew exactly who to rape, impregnante and enslave. They still know today what a female body is when they want to rent one to masturbate (in)to, or they're looking for a surrogate, or they wanna pay her less cuz she might get pregnant or need to rest when she's going through period cramps that doctors have hardly bothered to study, cuz no one gives a fuck about the female body.

No thanks. I know what a woman is and why we're oppressed. You can't change my mind or guilt-trip me into your postmodern nonsense.

Get back to me you wanna work together to take down the men who are actually making life hard for all of us. My offer is on the table, but it's not unconditional. Respect women's boundaries or loose a ton of us as allies. Period.

GothHick
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:09 am

Post by GothHick » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:14 pm

Foxgloves wrote:I should clarify: When it comes to leftists, feminists are the only group routinely badgered to advocate for everyone.
I tend not to post more than once a day but would you believe that when I read this yesterday I made a note of how I owed you a response along the lines of, "I've never seen that sort of thing before and will have to keep my eyes open."

Funny what a difference a day makes, really.

sad_mushroom
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:12 pm

Post by sad_mushroom » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Hi, folks.

I've been reading this comic since the early days. I was very pleased by its shift towards feminist and anti-imperialist subject matter. I strongly support that message, and was happy to see it packaged in such a distinctive way.

Lately, though, I've been increasingly distressed by an evident anti-trans message. As of this strip that subtext has risen to the level of text, and I feel the need to speak up.

Trans women are women. Feminists should support and protect them, not attack them. Mocking like this has real consequences. I have been fortunate to know and love amazing trans women. All of them have suffered greatly from transphobic abuse and some finally took their own lives.

Equating people expressing concern as I am doing with a mob threatening physical violence as in the June 13th comic also doesn't seem helpful.

I can't count myself as a supporter of yours while you espouse this hurtful position. I hope one day that to come back to this comic when it no longer targets some of the most vulnerable members of our society.

User avatar
ReidlosToof
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:48 pm

Post by ReidlosToof » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:21 pm

Men and women are the same. Human. Thinking that what's between your legs or how much testosterone or estrogen your body produces makes a difference to who you are means that you are part of the problem. It's that simple.

User avatar
Foxgloves
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Germany

Whats a woman?

Post by Foxgloves » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:32 pm

sad_mushroom wrote: Trans women are women.
How do you define 'woman'? (one sentence please, if possible)

SrPilha
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:53 pm

Re: Whats a woman?

Post by SrPilha » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:23 am

Foxgloves wrote: How do you define 'woman'? (one sentence please, if possible)
A woman is, in our society, whatever we collectively identify as such.

The claim "trans women are women" is not an essentialist one, as I understand it, but an act of inclusion: "our understanding of 'woman' must cover these people as well".

I'm not sure this solves any of the discussions on this thread, but at least it might take us away from reifying some stuff that maybe shouldn't be.

--

For the record, I do think that "women don't have penises" is a transphobic statement. Radical feminists don't have to actively defend trans people if they don't want to (or anyone else, and as a man I'm not about to give 'advice' on that topic), and of course the experiences of growing up in what is seen as a woman's body or a man's body are just about incomparable. But being openly transphobic seems to me to be just wrong, whatever your stance on all the rest.

User avatar
October
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:48 am
Location: Eastern USA

Post by October » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 am

One of the reasons debate on this topic feels so meaningless to me is because we can't even agree on language. For many of us radfems, woman = Adult Human Female.

For those of us who accept the reality of biological sex, the idea of taking a word and slapping it on anything that we like it on seems ludicrous. Females have never been able to "identify" out of our oppression. Our reality is not a feeling. It isn't a costume.

The rights that we have in our society were extremely hard-won with blood, sweat and tears. I refuse to forget all of the women who have suffered and fought for them, and for the safety of all females. No matter how sympathetic I am towards those suffering from dysphoria, I will not forsake women's safety to feed delusions.
"Because as we all know... there is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself!" -Hannah Gadsby

Post Reply