Why can't human beings change sex?

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abbreviation
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Post by abbreviation » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:36 am

Mama Immo wrote:I cannot imagine anyone who is actively suicidal being let to do anything other than exactly what professionals insist upon for their own health. I have been under the control of said professionals after an attempt on my own life. I could do nothing until it was abundantly clear that I was behaving rationally again.
Have you not looked into trans-identifying people's places of discussion online? Followed them on social media? Have you not seen that threatening suicide is extremely common, and something that usually makes medical staff more insistent on "gender confirmation surgery", so that the patient doesn't kill themselves? This is not something I'm making up.
But what would you say then to someone who was not threatening suicide, was taking medication for any diagnosed conditions, and still wanted this change?
If a mentally sane person wants cosmetic surgery to feel better about their bodies, I think that's a shitty idea that shouldn't be supported. But as long as it's allowed at all, it'll have to be allowed for everybody. So, they'd have to pay for it themselves and it doesn't give them the right to appropriate the word "woman".
All of them? Across the board? I'll believe that there are some who are... maybe even a sizeable number... but all? Highly unlikely.
No, as RikkiTikkiTavi pointed out, there's a lot of social contagiousness.

RikkiTikkiTavi & jam3: I agree completely.

immo
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by immo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:29 am

When there's trans discourse and I hear people saying transfolk have a mental disorder so therefore shouldn't be making any decisions regarding their welfare, makes me think of back in the days when they said the same thing about women in general who were too 'uppity' and the lgbtq+ community who were subjected to corrective procedures or were sterilized for their perceived wrongs.

But I absolutely feel this line from Mama Immo (hey, another immo!):

"But I do still feel that talking in absolutes about other peoples choices is a disservice to their own agency."

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RikkiTikkiTavi
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by RikkiTikkiTavi » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:53 pm

Just as a point of clarity and also to ask other's opinions, do you approve of trans-women athletes competing as women in competitions?

The reason I ask is because I think this is one of the more illustrative points of the whole 'can't change sex' debates. We have all probably seen the news stories that are covering trans-women winning competitions against women competitors. In one of the latest I read, the trans athlete basically said that she was at a 'disadvantage' over the naturally born women. She didn't elaborate about the nature of this disadvantage but it was in response to criticism of her competition.

Personally, I don't think trans-athletes should compete in athletic events against natural born women or men. A natural born male, even with hormone therapy is a completely different physical entity in strength and size from a natural born female. Men naturally have about 25% more muscle mass than women and that does not change with hormone replacement therapy.

I think this is one of the main issues causing conflict of acceptance of trans-folk. It clearly illustrates the difference between trans-women and women, and I think it hardens the minds of those who see it as clearly 'cheating' - but we are all supposed to accept this without question.

Is it cheating? Are we supposed to ignore the physical realities and let people who have altered their bodies compete with natural females?

I get that some athletes who are women naturally have higher testosterone levels - that is just a fortunate natural advantage. Some men have naturally high testosterone levels and that makes them superb athletes. That might be frustrating, but it is natural - not artificially derived.

I don't have any prejudice against trans-folk. You tell me who you are and I call you the name you give yourself. Do I think trans-women are the same as naturally born women. No. But that does not lessen their value as human beings.

Anyway - who cares what I think. What do you think?

gyrfox
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by gyrfox » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:06 pm

RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:53 pm
I think this is one of the main issues causing conflict of acceptance of trans-folk. It clearly illustrates the difference between trans-women and women, and I think it hardens the minds of those who see it as clearly 'cheating' - but we are all supposed to accept this without question.
Thank you for articulating this well. When people ask me to accept this* without question is when red flags go off. There can and should be meaningful discussions around topics where biology does matter, and if such conversation gets shut down by accusations of "transphobe" or "TERF", I start to wonder about the agenda's at play.

*this = trans-women being considered 100% interchangeable with biological females across the board.
RikkiTikkiTavi wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:53 pm
I don't have any prejudice against trans-folk. You tell me who you are and I call you the name you give yourself. Do I think trans-women are the same as naturally born women. No. But that does not lessen their value as human beings.
My feelings as well.

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Z6IIAB
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by Z6IIAB » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:03 pm

I thought the point of having a new forum was so radfems could be welcome and speak their minds without being called "TERFs" or "transphobes" or "bullys". But since some people can't handle simple facts as "people can not change their sex" and "calling yourself a woman doesn't make you one; being born a female HUMAN being does" guess we're back were we started. Only this time people that come here to thrown their tantrums because they can't stand women seeing throught their bullshit are the ones getting shut off. It's just a virtual version of real life: angry men and their handmaidens trying to destroy any feminist group or gathering they deem "problematic" because it doesn't revolve aroung penises. Well, we won't shut it, so keep obssessing over us. We'll stay right here, and we'll keep on saying what needs to be said: Transwomen aren't women. TRAs are misogynysts. Gender is sexism. Women are adult female human beings. Get over it.
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

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Zhathil
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by Zhathil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:03 am

Z6IIAB wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:03 pm
I thought the point of having a new forum was so radfems could be welcome and speak their minds without being called "TERFs" or "transphobes" or "bullys". But since some people can't handle simple facts as "people can not change their sex" and "calling yourself a woman doesn't make you one; being born a female HUMAN being does" guess we're back were we started. Only this time people that come here to thrown their tantrums because they can't stand women seeing throught their bullshit are the ones getting shut off. It's just a virtual version of real life: angry men and their handmaidens trying to destroy any feminist group or gathering they deem "problematic" because it doesn't revolve aroung penises. Well, we won't shut it, so keep obssessing over us. We'll stay right here, and we'll keep on saying what needs to be said: Transwomen aren't women. TRAs are misogynysts. Gender is sexism. Women are adult female human beings. Get over it.
Knowing that all of the TRAs were going to be jumping in and forcing 'debate' was why I was really hesitant to even get involved posting here. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion with other radfems without them hijacking the conversation or forcing cyclical arguments. Then you have well-meaning but imo misguided radfems talking about how we should be nice and explain, when it's just clear derailment and stopping us from having our own space where we don't have to defend our points constantly. I'm not one for echo chambers, but I also would like for us to have a place where we're not just trying to explain facts to TRAs over and over and their aren't men getting so upset when the conversation isn't pandering to their feelings. If facts could change the mind of TRAs, there wouldn't be any.

It's why I particularly enjoy your posts, since you have refreshingly shed the internalised 'Women need to be nice!' that way too many here have. Not to say you're cruel or mean, but you don't mince words.
Not the nice kind of feminist.

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RikkiTikkiTavi
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by RikkiTikkiTavi » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm

Zhathil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:03 am

Knowing that all of the TRAs were going to be jumping in and forcing 'debate' was why I was really hesitant to even get involved posting here. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion with other radfems without them hijacking the conversation or forcing cyclical arguments. Then you have well-meaning but imo misguided radfems talking about how we should be nice and explain, when it's just clear derailment and stopping us from having our own space where we don't have to defend our points constantly. I'm not one for echo chambers, but I also would like for us to have a place where we're not just trying to explain facts to TRAs over and over and their aren't men getting so upset when the conversation isn't pandering to their feelings. If facts could change the mind of TRAs, there wouldn't be any.

It's why I particularly enjoy your posts, since you have refreshingly shed the internalised 'Women need to be nice!' that way too many here have. Not to say you're cruel or mean, but you don't mince words.
I appreciate this perspective. I joined in order to learn more - and believe me it has been an eye opening experience to see this conflict but I do feel the intention of the forum has been hijacked into the trans-world view debate. I really appreciate the topic in another post about radfem readings. That is the main reason I am here - to learn about the radical feminist perspective.

I too appreciate Celina's 'direct' responses.

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Z6IIAB
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Re: Why can't human beings change sex?

Post by Z6IIAB » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:42 pm

Zhathil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:03 am
Z6IIAB wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:03 pm
I thought the point of having a new forum was so radfems could be welcome and speak their minds without being called "TERFs" or "transphobes" or "bullys". But since some people can't handle simple facts as "people can not change their sex" and "calling yourself a woman doesn't make you one; being born a female HUMAN being does" guess we're back were we started. Only this time people that come here to thrown their tantrums because they can't stand women seeing throught their bullshit are the ones getting shut off. It's just a virtual version of real life: angry men and their handmaidens trying to destroy any feminist group or gathering they deem "problematic" because it doesn't revolve aroung penises. Well, we won't shut it, so keep obssessing over us. We'll stay right here, and we'll keep on saying what needs to be said: Transwomen aren't women. TRAs are misogynysts. Gender is sexism. Women are adult female human beings. Get over it.
Knowing that all of the TRAs were going to be jumping in and forcing 'debate' was why I was really hesitant to even get involved posting here. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion with other radfems without them hijacking the conversation or forcing cyclical arguments. Then you have well-meaning but imo misguided radfems talking about how we should be nice and explain, when it's just clear derailment and stopping us from having our own space where we don't have to defend our points constantly. I'm not one for echo chambers, but I also would like for us to have a place where we're not just trying to explain facts to TRAs over and over and their aren't men getting so upset when the conversation isn't pandering to their feelings. If facts could change the mind of TRAs, there wouldn't be any.

It's why I particularly enjoy your posts, since you have refreshingly shed the internalised 'Women need to be nice!' that way too many here have. Not to say you're cruel or mean, but you don't mince words.
Image

Thank you! Finally, someone who gets it ❤ (thanks to everyone who gets it, btw!) yes, I won't walk on eggshells. I'm very blunt and straight forward, and I don't mind if some people aren't used to women being upfront like that. We're done being "nice". This is our space, and we're gonna take space ✊
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

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